Permission to Kick Ass

The Best of PTKA: Celebrating 100 Episodes!

Episode Summary

Today’s guest is… multiple guests from the first 50 episodes of Permission to Kick Ass! We wanted to do something special to celebrate hitting the 100-episode milestone, so the team and I went through every single show to pull the best stories and advice from our guest experts. It’s a podcast buffet - today you get to taste a little bit of everything. I hope you brought your appetite for knowledge, because we’re about to serve it up…

Episode Notes

This episode was a multi-month labor of love. I couldn’t have done it without the dream team - Amy Cook, James Ede, Claire Fernan, Enda Ndungu, and Laura Valenti. Fun fact: the first cut of this episode clocked in at 3 hours and 58 minutes. Somehow we managed to cut it back to what you’ll be hearing today. If you love listening to podcasts on 2x so you can listen to MORE podcasts, this episode will be right up your alley. 25 guests in roughly 90 minutes… and GO!

Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:

This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!

Angie’s Bio:

Hi, I’m Angie Colee. Nice to virtually meet you! I’m a business coach and communications expert… and your personal hype woman. 

I help info marketers, thought leaders, creative freelancers, and corporate teams to -

And so much more! 

Over the last decade-plus, I’ve led, coached, and developed creative teams for some brands you would definitely recognize. I’ve also helped launch thousands of products and marketing campaigns, including two multimillion-dollar launches in the middle of a global pandemic. Combined, my work has generated more than $70 million in direct-to-consumer sales.

My passion project is this show, Permission to Kick Ass. It’s a podcast (and movement) for freelancers and creative entrepreneurs who want to start (or grow) businesses that are perfect for their personalities and their lifestyles. It’s the show I wish I’d had when I was first starting out - maybe then I wouldn’t have convinced myself I was screwing everything up and stalled my own progress for years.

hen I’m not helping entrepreneurs build their empires, you’ll find me on the road. I’m a full-time digital nomad and I host marketing workshops and entrepreneurial playdates business-building events in different locations all around the U.S.

You can count on me to locate the really good food, find landmarks and local hotspots, and try all kinds of weird things like llama yoga and digging in the dirt with backhoes.

Resources and links mentioned:

Come kick ass with me:

Download this episode

Episode Transcription

Speaker 1 (00:00:03):

Welcome to Permission to Kick, the show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners from those a few years into freelancing to CEOs, hemming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried about everyone else getting it and that you're missing something, we're just messing things up. This show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Coley, and let's get to it.

Speaker 1 (00:00:35):

Hey, and welcome back to Permission to Kick. We're doing something a little different today. Why? Because this is officially the hundredth episode of the show and the team and I wanted to put together something special to celebrate. We went through the first 50 episodes of the show and pulled all our favorite clips from a few seconds of goofing off to some seriously inspiring stuff. And if you heard me say first 50 and thought, wait, didn't you say a hundred a minute ago, Angie, you're absolutely right. In March of 2023 will mark two years of the show, and that's when we'll release part two of the best of that covers the back half of the first a hundred episodes. Stay tuned for that. It's gonna be awesome. In the meantime, let's kick this off in style. Where else could we start at the beginning? Let's kick things off with the inspiration behind the show from way back in episode two.

Speaker 1 (00:01:17):

It's my mom, Mary Philia. I really wanted to have you on the show because, and I don't know if I've ever articulated this to you, so if I haven't, my bad. But here, you get to hear it as, as the world gets to hear it. Um, you've been my hero and my model for entrepreneurship, and I think that's because I've watched you over the years try a business, try a business, learn a lesson, pivot, adjust, and just keep going despite all the setbacks. Despite all the odds. And that's exactly why I wanted to create a show, is to help people like you and me that have, we've tried and we might be missing something or we've tried and it wasn't quite the right fit for what we wanted to do, but we kept going anyway. And that's, I mean, you're the inspiration for my show, so I love you, mommy. Aw, well, thank you. I love you too, .

Speaker 1 (00:02:08):

Now let's talk intros. Some folks go all out as show hosts. I've been a guest on many shows where the host read a pre-written bio, prefer to keep things simple. In fact, it's something I jokingly warn my guests about. Before we start recording, I usually tell them some version of the following. You'd think after more than a decade as a writer and a couple years as a podcast host, I'd have a more sophisticated intro. Outro, don't, I'm just gonna jump in and say, Hey, everyone, meet my friends. Say hi friends, and we'll be off to the races. Of course, when you don't have much of a prompt, people wind up winging it in often hilarious ways. Say hello to everyone. Patrick.

Speaker 2 (00:02:43):

Hello everyone. coming to you live from Lexington, Kentucky.

Speaker 1 (00:02:50):


Speaker 3 (00:02:50):

There, auntie. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:02:54):

Oh, I love it. Just listening to you talk. I'm gonna do the typical American shtick, like, just give me the, the accents all day long. I love Ozzie accents. .

Speaker 4 (00:03:02):

Well, I'm saying the sand descend. All the accent is

Speaker 1 (00:03:05):

So lovely. . That's awesome. All right, welcome back to Permission to Kick with me today is my friend Justin Blackman. I am so excited for this one. Say hello, Justin.

Speaker 5 (00:03:16):

Hello, Justin . I did it. I went dad joke right away and knew, knew

Speaker 1 (00:03:23):

Gonna do that. As soon as I said it, I knew you were gonna do it, but

Speaker 5 (00:03:25):

That's great. I did too.

Speaker 1 (00:03:27):

That's great. That's great. Just tell us

Speaker 5 (00:03:29):

Go ahead. 40 minutes of of these Hannah Dad jokes, so you know. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:03:33):

40 minutes of dad jokes,

Speaker 5 (00:03:35):

Everybody .

Speaker 1 (00:03:37):

So welcome Alex.

Speaker 6 (00:03:39):

Hi, Angie. Is glad to be somewhere on the internet with you.

Speaker 1 (00:03:44):

Honestly, . And then comes that wonderful moment so many of us love to hate when we're forced to talk about ourselves. Here are a few of my favorite unexpected intros. Hey, and welcome back to Permission to Kick with me. Today is I think my new best friend, mat de Perque. . Say Hi, mat.

Speaker 4 (00:04:05):

Hi. You got my name White. It's amazing. I'm, I'm happy. I'm very happy.

Speaker 1 (00:04:09):

Names are important. I know.

Speaker 4 (00:04:12):

So I know they're very important and yeah, nice to meet you. New bff.

Speaker 1 (00:04:16):

I know. And I'm, that's my little mini rant for everybody that's listening. Names are important. Spell them right, pronounce them right. It's a sign of respect. Just do the thing. All right. Ran over.

Speaker 4 (00:04:26):

Speaker 1 (00:04:26):

. Very true. We're already, we're already in a testy mood because right before we started recording the podcast, we just, we discovered that Meta's laptop is haunted.

Speaker 4 (00:04:36):

It is haunted.

Speaker 1 (00:04:37):

It's haunted. It's

Speaker 4 (00:04:38):

It's haunted. There's some strange gremlin going on. I've never experienced it that everything was still on, but I just got a black screen and I couldn't see you. But everything was still on. And I just realized it's my hand that does it. If I put my hand on a specific part of my laptop,

Speaker 1 (00:04:55):

Meta's haunted or she haunting

Speaker 4 (00:04:57):


Speaker 1 (00:04:57):


Speaker 4 (00:04:58):

Yeah. I thought the Gremlin was in the laptop. I think it might be in me. The

Speaker 1 (00:05:02):

Group isn't me. There's my subject line for this . Oh yes. This is the one I have been waiting for. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my pleasure to introduce you to my friend Jimmy Parent, who I am very, very excited to have on permission to kick as today. Hi, Jimmy.

Speaker 7 (00:05:19):

Hi, friend.

Speaker 1 (00:05:20):

Tell us a little bit about your background and what you do, Jimmy.

Speaker 7 (00:05:24):

Yeah. Drugs. A lot of drugs. . No, no. I am . That's, that is not me. So the label that I gave myself is, I am a persuasion scientist. And uh, the reason why that's true is cuz I made it up.

Speaker 1 (00:05:42):

I stayed up late and Pauline got up early. My friend Pauline Longden, all the way from Australia. Hi Pauline.

Speaker 4 (00:05:49):

Hi Angie. . So good to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:05:53):

I'm so glad we finally got to sync up. Like we've been trying for weeks to get the schedule to work out and the timing to work out so that we could record this episode. So this makes me very happy. You've

Speaker 4 (00:06:02):

Made my day. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for being so flexible.

Speaker 1 (00:06:05):

Oh yeah, no problem at all. That's how badly I wanted you on the show. I'm like, Nope, , I'm, I'm totally down to do this. Um, so we were talking a little bit about your journey before the show, uh mm-hmm. , let's just jump right in. You've got such a fascinating story. I don't even want to try and give it an intro. Let's just go

Speaker 4 (00:06:22):

. Okay. So like, we're like, we're gonna start from like, when I was born at a young age, or a little bit greater than that. . I'm distracting

Speaker 1 (00:06:29):

. It's the Pauline hour. We're just gonna do the whole life story. Once upon a time,

Speaker 4 (00:06:34):

Once upon a time, there's a little baby born in Sydney, Australia. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, even from , even from when I was born, like I didn't obviously wanna come out. I was like, back in the 1960s, late 1960s, I was actually, um, a 10 month baby. It's like I was just so reluctant to come out and I think my life has just been pretty much an extension of that all the way through

Speaker 8 (00:06:55):

. But, uh, yeah, spent about six years as a copywriter, then realized, hey, marketing's cool, but I don't wanna do that anymore. Maybe . So started doing this life coaching thing and was like, holy crap, this is super awesome. So that's, uh, now it's, I'm doing a bit of both and yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:07:11):

There you go. And I am totally biased, but you're really freaking good at it. So I like you. Hey. The mindset thing for sure. Brian ladies and Jens, everybody that is listening, ladies, Jens and others, uh, was instrumental in helping me get past my own fear blocks about putting out this exact podcast. Oh, you . So if nothing else, everybody, let's just have a moment of like snaps or claps or celebration for the fact that you're even listening to this podcast because Brian talked me off a ledge a couple of different times.

Speaker 8 (00:07:41):

, Hey, hey, you're the one doing it, Angie.

Speaker 1 (00:07:44):

I remember wondering, who the hell am I to start a podcast before I signed up to coach with Brian. And when he and I first started working together, I had this thought that someday I'd know I made it and would no longer feel like I was making it up. Turns out that imposter syndrome feeling is pretty common at all stages from episode nine. Alex penning reminds us, we don't need to know what's happening backstage.

Speaker 6 (00:08:05):

The funny thing about imposter syndrome is that everybody's got it. Everybody's got it. And pretty much no one deserves it. , I I've spent a lot of time helping people figure out in their stories, you know, where exactly it is that they became the hero because they never see it. You know, they never, they never see this wonderful journey that they have overcome, uh, their, their, their challenges that they've overcome. They don't see them and they end up just viewing themselves as not good enough to be the hero of their own story. And that's just a real shame.

Speaker 1 (00:08:48):

It really is. I see, I see that a lot with people that I've coached too. And I wonder if you, you have noticed kind of the same thing that I have. It seems to be twofold. One, that we're in our heads, right? And we're comparing our backstage show , as I like to say, to somebody else's polished, you know, multimillion dollar Broadway rehearsal and we're gauging ourselves on all the wrong things. We didn't see all of the backstage stuff that happened to get them to Broadway, but we're still using that to kind of treat ourselves as punching bags. And then the other thing I would say is, I saw this in myself a lot in my early days of writing, that it came easy to me. This is a, something that I have a natural affinity for and, and I've worked hard to develop my skills, but because it comes easier to me to string a couple words together and put together a clever turn of phrase, I undervalue that a lot. And it, it took a lot of people telling me straight to my face that they admired my ability to wrangle words as it were. Um, . It was an interesting revelation, that's for sure.

Speaker 6 (00:10:03):

Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and this is actually a really great time to highlight the difference between a talent and a skill because people, people value skills really, really, really highly. Right. But if you're talented at it, somehow that becomes something we discredit

Speaker 1 (00:10:20):

In episode 24, Inika and I got good and ranty about the myth of having it all together before you make a move. We're gonna destroy this idea of like, everybody has to have their together to get things done. Mm-hmm. . Uh, I think that's exactly why this podcast exists, because to me it was eyeopening the first time I met another entrepreneur that was like, oh my God, I'm so overwhelmed. I don't know what to do. I'm stuck and fi like, I don't know if I can do this. And I was like, oh my God, you too

Speaker 9 (00:10:48):


Speaker 1 (00:10:49):

I'm not actually alone. And so I wanted to bring that out there to the world cuz especially, especially with the newer entrepreneurs and the people that are really just taking this bet on themselves mm-hmm. for the first time mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . They do exactly like you said. Exactly like you said. They look at all these other people around them and go, oh, that person has it all together. How do I even compare to that? Um, spoiler alert, you're comparing your internal show to their polished front stage

Speaker 9 (00:11:22):


Speaker 1 (00:11:23):

Exactly. Broadway

Speaker 9 (00:11:24):

Show. Exactly. Exactly As they say, don't compare your, your beginning to somebody else's middle. Yes. You know, but it's, but it's, I mean, I'm saying it like, like I've got it all like, sorted out mm-hmm. , but I do the same thing. I have to just keep reminding myself because that's what I'm trying to tell other people. Right.

Speaker 1 (00:11:43):

And in episode seven, Carolyn and Aian reveals the good news. You may just be right on time and not late at all. I mean, it's interesting right? Because we put

Speaker 10 (00:11:52):

All all this attention on early achievements when statistically the vast majority of entrepreneurs, and particularly CEOs don't reach that point until well into their forties.

Speaker 1 (00:12:05):

I know. And it, it's always bewildered me, the people that have their lives mapped out from like, the time they turn 12. I know exactly. I'm gonna be the, the prom queen. I'm gonna be married by the time I'm 24. Yeah. I'm gonna be a c e O by the time I'm 35. Like, they have all the steps mapped out. And I think at 26, which is about, you know, I've been in this industry for about 10 years. That was when I was already working a job in an area that I thought I was gonna spend the rest of my life in TV development. Yeah. Out in la And I still don't really feel like I knew what I was doing. .

Speaker 10 (00:12:38):

Oh, I thought I was gonna go to law school. And then I thought, um, I, I thought I was gonna, you know, go work for the government. I thought, uh, one point I was thinking of medical school. This was at 22 of course. But like, I didn't know what I wanted actually. I would say that to anybody who's considering entrepreneurship. It's like, what do you really want? And do you just need therapy?

Speaker 1 (00:12:58):

? I

Speaker 10 (00:12:59):

I'm totally serious. I'm totally serious. Cuz most people, are you running toward entrepreneurship or are you running away from something?

Speaker 1 (00:13:06):

Yeah, that's a, that's a good distinction to make. And I think a lot of us share this. I know we have a mentor named Kevin Rogers. Yeah. Uh, and I've talked about him on previous episodes of the podcast, but he talked about not fitting in anywhere really being unemployable. And that's always made me laugh because like you, I've done just about every job under the sun, picked up trash, been a firefighter. I've tended bar, I've I've done everything. I did a brief stint as a phone sex operator. No. Wow. That was, that was weird. . I did not last very long in that job.

Speaker 10 (00:13:43):

I imagine that that's a tough job. I thought waiting tables sucked.

Speaker 1 (00:13:46):

Yeah. It, it was a pretty tough job. But, you know, everything that I've ever done leads me to where I am because it gave me such a rich tapestry of experience, uh, a rich well to draw from whenever I'm coming up with stories.

Speaker 10 (00:14:02):


Speaker 1 (00:14:03):

I love that.

Speaker 10 (00:14:04):

I think it's also great to know what you, what you hate. Yes. As much as what, cuz a lot of us, let's be honest, like the way society is built, we're not equipped to find out what we actually want. If anything, it's kind of beaten out of us by the time we graduate from school. Cuz we spend the first 20 years of our lives following someone else's curriculum. And nobody actually says to us, well, what do you actually want? And what does that look like? And what does success look like to you? You know, money is great, but it's not everything. And that's true because if you define success by making your first million dollars, well, what happens when you hit that first million dollars? Mm-hmm. . Now what?

Speaker 1 (00:14:39):

Oh, that's such a great point too. I'm so glad that you said that because there are so many people that they have a vision for their future. You know, that person that has their whole future mapped out that I still don't understand. And they get to that vision of success. And one of two things usually happens. One, either it doesn't match what their expectation was and they're disappointed. Yeah. It, it doesn't look, they're not, they didn't cross the finish line into happiness and they're wondering what the. Yeah. Or they realize, okay, so I achieved all the goals. Now what? Yeah. Oh. Like, just because I crossed the finish line doesn't mean like I'm sailing into happy land for the rest of my life. Like, you still gotta actually do things, so now we have to move the goalposts, try for another big goal. And so the journey goes . And then in episode six, Ashley Bergoff reminds us that not only do we not have to do everything, we shouldn't, I just didn't know how to let go of things. I had myself so convinced that I could, I was the only one that knew how to do all these things

Speaker 11 (00:15:46):


Speaker 1 (00:15:47):

and so unwilling to trust that somebody else knew how to do this better than me. So, I mean, I guess it's a bit of ego there, but then it's a bit of maybe lack of knowledge. What would you say that is the, the, the worry about not being able to let go?

Speaker 11 (00:16:06):

Yeah. I have experienced the exact same thing. And in my experience, I think what it was, I, I think you're right. There's that, that ego piece to it. But there's also the sense that when you're wearing every single hat in your business and you've built it from literally nothing, it's your baby. Mm-hmm. , you're so deep on every aspect of, of what's going on in the business. And it's part of you. I remember, you know, as I started trying to build a team, it, it didn't just feel like, oh, here's a part of the business to, to manage, or here's a client to take care of. It felt like handing over my child to somebody Right. And trying to disentangle myself from that thing mm-hmm. . And so there's the trust issue. There's the, the feeling like, okay, I have all this deep knowledge in my brain. All of this is a product of me. How am I going to possibly bring someone else in who could do this in the same way that I could? How can I download that and how can I release some of it as well to recognize that, you know, my business isn't me. I'm the steward of my business, but it's not me and it's actually hurting my business when it can only go as far as I can go.

Speaker 1 (00:17:28):

So true. Focusing on what you're good at and letting go of the rest can take you very far. Speaking of what you're good at, you do know there's only one you in the world. Right. And that your unique perspective and life experience combined with whatever it is you do, that's what makes your business offering special. From back in episode three, Kathy Hay explains the

Speaker 12 (00:17:48):

Gift of the internet is really, I, I realized early on that on the internet, people organize themselves by interests, not by geography. So, ooh, your interest can be, you know, breeding pink hamsters and somewhere out there on the internet there will be some other people who are interested in breeding pink hamsters. So, you know, you've got this amazing opportunity to actually be yourself and actually find other people in this huge pool of other humans that are easier than ever to find. There are going to be people out there like you. So that's enormously freeing and makes it a great time in history to be alive .

Speaker 1 (00:18:31):

And in episode 41, Jimmy Parrett reveals why it's important to embrace all of your weirdness.

Speaker 7 (00:18:38):

I've been sharing something that you taught me a long time ago with, with some, you know, some we'll call 'em like students, you know, or whatever. Mentees. That's really what it is. Okay. And it's the, uh, let your freak flag fly. Hmm. Okay. And the context is like, you know, this, uh, you know, this girl, she's like, Hey, I'm, I'm, I wanna get better at doing sales, having sales conversations. And I said, all right, here's one of the best things I ever learned. You know, I learned it from Angie Coley. And it's the let your freak flag fly, meaning like, uh, instead of acting or rather behaving in, in how you think they want you to behave, just go in there and just be weird. Mm-hmm. , like your normal weirdness. Just go out there and say what you, you know, it's like what you see is what you get.

Speaker 7 (00:19:26):

Yep. You know? And so she did that and, you know, this was like a sec, I think it was like a second call where like the first time she was like, ah, like kind of reserved trying to act like a professional, you know, and she'd be all reserved and had a second call and she just like, totally relaxed and just like, let her weirdness come out and had like her weird cliches and jokes, you know, like, you know, inside jokes, like, you know, people who are like in the anime, they'll make like a Dragon Ball Z reference mm-hmm. and it's like, it'll either land or it doesn't, you know? Yeah. But you know, she had like that kind of thing and they just totally jived with it. And they had weird jokes. And then she ended up getting the gig and she was like, this was awesome. Mm-hmm. , this was absolutely awesome. So I'm, I'm handing you all that credit. Oh,

Speaker 1 (00:20:10):

Well, thank you. And you know, like, to, to phrase that another way and, and you unpacked that so well, is to think of it like a, a mask or, or our mentor Kevin Rogers says it all the time that finding a client is kinda like dating. So would you go Yeah. On a date with somebody like formal button down, uh, putting on this best front only later on to be like, okay, when I show them the real me, are they going to leave? Well maybe because the person that you showed them from the beginning wasn't actually you . So like you've kind of tricked them into falling for someone that's not authentic and, you know, the, the worry that they might leave once they discover who you really are is totally well-founded. Uh, so I don't believe in doing that these days. You know, if I, if I, I am currently single, I know you have got a loving partner and that is fantastic. When I go on dates, I am not going to cover my tattoos. I am not going to refrain from swearing. I, you know, I am pretty sure I'm not ready for kids and that I probably will not be a mother. But, you know, stranger things have happened in life and, and I will be open and honest about these things. And if they're a turnoff for the partner, good. We didn't waste each other's time. It's fantastic.

Speaker 7 (00:21:28):

That's, no, that's absolutely perfect. I mean, uh, I say this, I've said this a million times, probably even on the last episode. Like, our, our brains, we do not have compartments for like work life and home life and, you know, dating life or whatever it is. You know, it's, we just have one brain, you know? Mm-hmm. and there's no compartments. And so, like a business relationship, our minds don't understand the difference between a business relationship and a friend relationship and a significant other relationship. It's just no, a relationship is a relationship. Mm-hmm. . And so the same rules apply. Why is it different? Just cuz there's currency involved.

Speaker 1 (00:22:06):

Yeah. I don't, yeah. I feel like there's gatekeepers in business. Like, if you don't do it this way, that you're gonna fail. And, and my my creative, dramatic, dramatic brain really loves to picture that they're Mr. Burns fingers steeping. Like, great if they follow this and if they follow this advice that I'm giving them, they're going to drop out of business and fail. And then they, that's more business for me. . Yeah. Um, I believe in business abundance and like, I'm not a super woo person, but I'm literally on the train of like, there's not one pie that we're all competing for a slice of, there's infinite pie. Cuz the more of us jump in here, the bigger we can build this fricking thing. And then you can claim whatever size of pot you could make your own pie. You could make a pie big enough for you to swim in.

Speaker 7 (00:22:53):

It could be a pizza pie. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (00:22:55):

. It could be, yeah. Could be a different kind of pie altogether. Uh, it could be a moon pie. Ooh.

Speaker 7 (00:23:00):

It could be a sweet potato pie.

Speaker 1 (00:23:02):

Ooh. I'm just picturing all of these giant pies. Like, did you ever watch that movie Patch Adams? I, yeah. I'm just picturing a pie big enough for me to sit in and like eat my way through eventually and join it. It's dirty and unsanitary. But please join me in this pie. We will sit in the pie and eat

Speaker 7 (00:23:18):

. I just discovered you could get diabetes from a conversation , because I'm like, I feel like I need an insulin shot right now.

Speaker 1 (00:23:25):

The flip side of owning your uniqueness is trusting your gut, even when it's scary. From episode 27, Chaba Zazi explains the importance of standing up for yourself

Speaker 13 (00:23:36):

Along the way of me becoming a, uh, a freelance copywriter. I had a bunch of nightmare clients from hell is that I called them, uh, and I a few, few times, you know, I got scammed and I got exploited and I had a few other clients as well, which were, uh, not too pleasant to work with, let's say. But at this point, you know, I would rather just not take the money. I have the fu fund, I have some savings. I would rather not work for a year or something than to, than to work for these because I'm just creating content more. I mean, I, I'm focused on the long-term strategy and it's just, I, I I think it was John Carlton, another, another famous copywriter who is like the mentor of our mentor, Kevin Rogers mm-hmm. who said that, you know, you gotta be very careful of, of breakdown and with like, submitting to these nightmare clients because it can really mess you up. And it, it does more damage than the, than the money that you take for it because it might less, it might, can I use the F word?

Speaker 1 (00:24:32):

You can say whatever the hell you want to on this podcast. My podcast. Oh,

Speaker 13 (00:24:36):

Hell yeah. .

Speaker 13 (00:24:38):

So, uh, I'm just gonna let it go. Yes. My, you know, the things that I've been conditioned to act politely in the society, but it politeness. It you up like crazy and you know, it might up your, uh, confidence. It might give you even more imposter syndrome. It might, uh, validate some of your preexisting false beliefs that you might have regarding yourself. Mm mm-hmm. . So, and I had this a few times. Uh, I, I said, you know, now you know, I'm more experienced. I'm just gonna take this client, even though there are a few red flags, it's just gonna be a quick work. You know, they just need something simple for me. . Nah. Never simple. Doesn't like that. Yeah. It's like, hey, it's, it, it should only take you like two days.

Speaker 1 (00:25:20):

Don't tell me how to do my job, bro.

Speaker 13 (00:25:22):

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:25:23):

I'll tell you how much time it takes. Thank you very much. Yeah. So

Speaker 13 (00:25:28):

With them nowadays,

Speaker 1 (00:25:29):

I'm so glad you brought that up too because okay guys, if you're new to business or maybe if you're in that intro phase, you've started your business and you're dealing with the nightmare clients, it's hard to see a light at the end of this particular tunnel. But listen to me, listen to Chava. If you stand your ground and you refuse to be treated a certain way, you'd be amazed how quickly those clients fall off your radar. And newer, better, more interesting projects come along with people that actually respect your expertise and your talent. And then, like we said, if you have that money saved up to float you in between finding those clients, then you don't have to take on gigs. And like the thing that you said that, you know, we're, we're gonna credit Carleton for that because that's something that I learned early on too, is like, you're not just spending your time with this client.

Speaker 1 (00:26:19):

Like you said, you're spending mental energy. There's emotion that goes into that. Because if you're a creator, a little piece of you goes into all the work. So there's like the rejection of them telling you that your work is not good enough. Yeah. I had that happen to me once with a nightmare client where the guy said, I'm not paying you the second half of the, like, he'd paid me a deposit. I'm not paying you the second half of your fee because this copy wasn't good enough. It was disappointing. It sucked. That copy sucked so much. He had it published on his website within 24 hours mm-hmm. of refusing to pay me. Mm-hmm. . Wow. Did that copy suck If he decided to use it. And so like the reason I'm going into this kind of circular rant here is if you're in this stage, it happens to all of us.

Speaker 1 (00:26:58):

Trust me when I say that there is a way out. I've been burned, Shab has been burned. Every freelancer under the sun, unless they have remarkable luck, like the kind of, they need to go get lotto tickets right now, luck, we've all been burned, we've all survived and come out the other side and built better businesses for it. It's part of the process to fall on your face, to take bad clients, to ignore red flags in favor of the money. It's all part of the process. From episode 30. Leona Patch expands on that idea of trusting yourself and reminds us there's no professionality police. Like we get this idea in our heads of what constitutes professional, but then especially since you get to run your own business and you get to call the shots and like I'm sitting here yet again in my Jack Skellington hoodie that I love so much. Um, people like working with people they like

Speaker 6 (00:27:49):

Mm-hmm. .

Speaker 1 (00:27:51):

And so yeah. I mean if buttoned down stick up the, stuffiness is your jam, I'm, Hey, no judging here, I don't particularly get along well with those people. I find that they chafe it my mirror presence. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (00:28:05):

, same. Weird, weird how that works.

Speaker 1 (00:28:08):

, they don't like me very much. I'm very loud. I dropped too many F-bombs and I am very prone to like, Hey, this sounds fun, let's go do it. And then running off like

Speaker 6 (00:28:18):

Yeah. We have a lot in common

Speaker 1 (00:28:20):

. I know. But then embracing that side of myself and tapping into that as a strength instead of trying to hide it actually wound up being what helped my career take off too. So I I think that that's great that you brought that up.

Speaker 6 (00:28:31):

Yeah. And also, I mean, not to like be a dead horse or whatever, but there's, there's a middle ground between like this super stuffy corporate person that nobody wants to be. We all know we don't wanna be, but then like, you know, all the way over here there's crazy and unprofessional. Yeah. Uh, but people need to get more comfortable in this space and especially when they're in a situation where they feel threatened, like becoming mindful of the fact like, oh, this is gonna be a hard topic to raise with the client, or I'm gonna have a tough time writing this email. They tend to retreat back behind that wall of like, well how would a professional say this? Mm-hmm. instead of going the opposite direction and being like, what does a human need to communicate to another human right now?

Speaker 1 (00:29:10):

I know, oh God, somebody was giving me a little bit of grief earlier cuz they know that one of my favorite coaching lines when someone is, when I'm coaching a new freelancer through a pricing challenge with a client and they can't figure out what price to quote their client, they're, well they're, they're just pushing back and they're asking me how much, how much. And I said, okay, this is my favorite response to somebody that says how much, and they won't answer my questions, are you ready for this? How much does a house cost? And and they're like, but you can't be that big of a smart. I'm like, I do but I, I do it with a touch of humor. You know? Mm-hmm. kinda like what you do. Leona said, how much does the house house cost? I promise I'm not trying to be as smart here, but as you can tell with buying a house, there's gonna be a lot of different factors.

Speaker 1 (00:29:52):

Location, school district, number of rooms, how recent, a whole bunch of questions that I need answered before I can tell you how much this house will cost. Mm-hmm. the same goes for this project that we're working on. So I really wish I could read your mind friends, but I can't. So if you could just answer these questions, , I could get you that price. I promise I want to get you a price, but I need to know a lot more. Yeah. And then it just kind of diffuse. It doesn't become like me trying to hide the price from them and trick them into something. Cause I feel like that's the dance that gets played a lot. Like I'm trying to get as much money out of you as I can. I'm trying to get as much work out of you as I can. Mm-hmm. and like, it, it feels adversarial. I'm like, no, but there could be a win-win and

Speaker 6 (00:30:33):

We can be fun. Yeah. And when you're obviously more secure on like what you do and don't provide for services, then you can be like, well it sounds like you want this thing, I don't do that, but I can do the other part of it for X dollars. Mm-hmm. so much easier to lay that line down.

Speaker 1 (00:30:47):

So, and you have permission to do that. , just to belabor the title of this podcast a little bit, , but I mean, you don't have to do everything just because it feels like you should or because a client asked you to do it. Um, no is a totally valid answer. I mean, give it a little bit more context cuz they're probably gonna wanna know why instead of just like, Nope.

Speaker 6 (00:31:09):


Speaker 1 (00:31:10):

. But,

Speaker 6 (00:31:12):

But, and then like that's one of those the, those situations where you can actually build trust by saying like, that's not my realm of expertise. Like, here's who I'd recommend. And they're like, oh my God, thank you so much for disappointing me. because you were real and you didn't just try to like something out that wasn't good. Cuz you don't do Google AdWords, you know?

Speaker 1 (00:31:30):

Mm-hmm. , I, I often tell people if they ask me if I manage like the backend of email service providers and stuff like that, I'm like, oh, you don't want, you don't want me anywhere near the buttons, bro. Like you, if there's a way to mess this up by just pushing a single button, I will find the nuclear option. My friends don't put me in that situation. Keep me in Google Docs where I belong. We will all be much happier for it.

Speaker 6 (00:31:53):

. Yep. Like you have a process. I have a process. Let's not break each other's processes. Okay. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:32:00):

Exactly. Like, here's what I'm good at. This is what I, this is the sandbox I like to play in. Let me introduce you to somebody with a different sandbox that will help you with your other problem.

Speaker 6 (00:32:08):

, so many sandboxes, ,

Speaker 1 (00:32:10):

All of the sandboxes. It's great.

Speaker 6 (00:32:13):

He's only pooping one of them.

Speaker 1 (00:32:14):

Oh yeah. , my brain went to the exact same

Speaker 6 (00:32:18):

We had to. Right.

Speaker 1 (00:32:20):

And Chima MEK brings it home in episode 40 where she talks about the real cost of ignoring your instincts, especially when no one else can see your vision the way you can. A couple of other interesting things too. Mm-hmm. And I wanted to circle back to this mm-hmm. especially mm-hmm. That you lost all your clients because of Covid mm-hmm. and I feel like mm-hmm. That's, that's a struggle that a lot of us had last year. What was it like going through that for you and how did you come out of it?

Speaker 14 (00:32:47):

Oh man, it was, it was brutal. Like I, I, as I, I did not expect losing my clients. Obviously nobody did kind of expect, okay, your clients are gonna be fine, they're going keep giving you work. But it just happened to have the space of one week, one week in April and boom, every, every single one was gone. And it was, it was just hard because I had just come out of a good mood in March and then I went into nothing in April. And it took a while for me to just reconcile that, okay, this is where I am, I'm at Grand zero, I'm basically back to the bottom and having to like reinvent myself again. And there are several things that came out of that in a good way. Number one was that I realized I was working with businesses that were basically too small, too small businesses.

Speaker 14 (00:33:34):

I needed to be working with bigger businesses that that could ride the tide even during a pandemic that could still stay profitable in a pandemic to keep sending work whatever is going on. And I needed to be charging way more money if I was going to do that. And I needed to be better positioned if I was going to be getting those kind of clients because I was, I think I was charging around 200 bucks for a block post then maybe three K would be the good moments and I'll be excited. But after that, no clients. I raised my rates. I think I started charging 600 bucks, still no clients. Went a couple of months without work and then I started getting traction. All of the hard work I put in, in positioning myself on social media, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, suddenly instead paying off, people are taking a, taking notes, reaching out.

Speaker 14 (00:34:21):

And then I started working with some awesome brands who told her that awesome brands about me. And I started getting more referrals from copywriters. And then I raised my rate again. I did my first 10 K same year, but none of this would've happened if I had not lost all of those clients who I was on the charging with and who couldn't afford to stay in business because of a pandemic. He wouldn't have led me to the point where I was raising my rates. Where I was seeing that okay, you're working with businesses that are too small for where you want to be or too small for what you want to be earning. Mm-hmm . So it was, it was just basically me knowing that I'm doing the right thing by raising my rates, even without any clients seemed like madness. Mm-hmm. , I'm doing the right thing by staying the course because I know I'm good.

Speaker 14 (00:35:03):

I know that I'm putting out content. I was consistent on social media, LinkedIn every day, creating educational content, putting out stuff on my blog. I just needed to wait for everything to get like settled. And then as soon as businesses started to stabilize again, they were back out looking for, um, SEO writers and strategies. And I was back in business again. But this time with better clients, more sustainable work, ongoing, the kind of stuff I was basically looking for, I was getting, but it was just, it just happened on the back of me losing all my clients in April. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (00:35:39):

, you're dropping such knowledge bombs and I feel like I wanna highlight everything that you're saying, but I'm gonna, the big one that you said that like, they don't get to see this video of course, but like my jaw literally dropped when you said it was I had to lose all my clients to figure out that this wasn't sustainable. Yes. And I think, so that's the danger zone for so many freelancers cuz like they see an event like that and go, I wasn't meant for this, or I'm a failure. And they start, you know, using themselves as punching bags. I'm a failure where as you, you can choose like chima to see it in a totally different light. Like something about this isn't working and I thought it was really, really smart of you to say, okay, I need to work with people that can survive a downturn like this cuz downturns are gonna happen.

Speaker 1 (00:36:29):

Mm-hmm. , none of us saw a pandemic coming. None of us. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm . And there are gonna be things in the future now with a globally connected society that we're, we're still not gonna be able to see things coming in the future. But the best thing that you can do is be prepared to ride that out. And if, you know, you wanna work with other people that believe that same thing, like I need to be prepared and I need to be able to ride that out for a few months because it's always gonna turn around. Mm-hmm. , I think that's so smart. Yes.

Speaker 14 (00:36:57):

That's that ability to stay because even when everybody's telling you to abandon ship and do something else that is profitable right now is so important because if you jump ship every time, get difficulty, you're never gonna stick to anything. You're never going to become an authority for anything. Mm-hmm. , you're just going to be a generalist and you are never going to make that kind of big money you trying to make.

Speaker 1 (00:37:19):

So by now you might be saying, great, Angie. I'm sure all that stuff makes sense for people who are established and have a lot of experience. Oh, contrary are my friends. The key is not in knowing everything there is to know, it's entrusting yourself to figure things out. From episode 35, Fabian Raphael talks about what makes you qualified to do what you do.

Speaker 15 (00:37:37):

I guess whenever you have something to to face that scares you, then you think about that, it's like, yeah, if I've been over that then mm-hmm. , you know, what else can happen? You know, who cares about people's judgment? So

Speaker 1 (00:37:50):

I know. No kidding. But like, it's, it's really easy to get sucked into that fear where especially when you're doing something new of like, I don't know if I can figure out my way through that. What if I do fall on my face mm-hmm. and I love telling people, well, I mean, if you fall down in real life, not in your hypothetical business situation or whatever you're trying to do, you don't lay down and wait for death to take you.

Speaker 15 (00:38:12):

True. It could be long if you just lay down and wait. just

Speaker 1 (00:38:16):

Wait, just waiting with the rain and the animals and all kinds of crazy stuff. But we dramatize that a lot, especially in business, which is really weird. Like, if I, if I hit one stumbling block, it's gonna be all over for me.

Speaker 15 (00:38:27):

I'm like, yeah. But you said, you said something that, that struck with me here. Uh, in our conversation you said, uh, you know, like people feel that when they're starting, like, you know, because they, they, they don't own the thing or they don't know everything. Mm-hmm. , um, for me, I have to say that with my clients, like they already know what they're great at, so they already have their zone of genius and that people can't take it away from you. You know? Mm-hmm. , your new skills are maybe your business skills or the fact that you don't know how to market yourself, but you have literally the potential to be helping someone right here, right now with all the skills that you already have. And I feel that this is what people are missing when they're getting started. Like, oh my God. Like they, they, you know, they, they refuse to own their worth and they're like, no, I'm just a beginner. I'm starting my coaching business. I'm starting to, you know, teach this or whatever. But like all these skills like that you've gained over the years, like they don't have value. Like what is this? I know. So I hate it when people are like, well, you know, when they're claiming that they're beginners mm-hmm. like coaches, beginner coaches. I'm like, yeah, you're a beginner and having your business, but no, you're not a beginner at helping people get that transformation. Um, so I just wanted to make that clear,

Speaker 1 (00:39:42):

. No, I love that. And I just, the head trash is so pervasive, isn't it? Like we come up with all kinds of little reasons to justify our fears. I know when, so I did copywriting for 10 years. I still do some on occasion, but mostly I'm transitioning to coaching and I had the same kind of head trash too. Oh. I've literally been paid to coach for other people's programs and I've been coaching for years and years, but I'm going out on my own now and I don't know what I'm doing and like blah, blah, blah, blah. All of this head trash. And finally, this is why I love my mentors. I deliberately surround myself with people that call me on my BS in a very loving and surprise . Yeah, of course. . I trying to mirror right back at me and go, you, you're being ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (00:40:17):

Right? So, uh, I, I had this story in my head when I first got started, got started with my own coaching business that how can I convince them they can start their own business when I can't show them? I have had mine, like, I've worked for a lot of people in partnership with a lot of people for a long time, and one of my coaches just goes, yeah, but have you helped people start a business? And I was like, well, yeah. And he goes, well, how many people have you helped start a business? And I was like, oh, dozens. Do they have results? And I was like, oh yeah, one just signed like a 12 month contract with his dream clients and it's, it's going pretty well. And he was like, so remind me again why you can't start a coaching business.

Speaker 15 (00:40:55):

Boom, mom .

Speaker 1 (00:40:57):

But it's funny how comforting it is to kind of step into that fear and just wallow in it for a while.

Speaker 15 (00:41:03):

Ah, yeah. But then, yeah, and then that kind of fear too is like, okay, get over it. Like, just focus on the people that you wanna help instead of posting it on yourself. Like, you know, when, when all the attention is like, oh my God, how am I going to feel? You know, why people, why would people pay me whatsoever? Okay, so what about your focus on what you can do to help people? Yes. And then all your attention is on these people. So basically you're solution oriented, like you wanna find a plan to help them out, or you wanna do, do whatever it takes to make it happen for them. So take the attention away from yourself and probably like it, I'm not saying it will, it will like make all your problems go away, but maybe part of it and it will give you that kick to actually get started at least. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (00:41:48):

. I think that's brilliant. It's super brilliant. I've, I've long had a philosophy in my personal life, like when I'm getting sucked into anxiety spirals, I try to make my world bigger as I call it. Like mm. I've, I've clearly become the center of the universe and my problems are so large that I can't see a way around them. So I need to get out of my center of the universe experience and like go out into the big world and usually fairly quick order. I get that perspective that reminds me I'm probably not even gonna remember this moment in five years. So why am I freaking out about this now? And, and it gets me unstuck and gets me going. Speaking of getting going, how serious are you about the path you're on in episode 42? Rossa, Locklin and I unpack the odds of success.

Speaker 8 (00:42:32):

Yeah. It's interesting you said like you have a 50% chance of succeeding and failing. Like I I know you were kinda using that as a kind of a, like there's a, you could go one way or the other. Mm-hmm. , like what's interesting is like, I, I, looking back now, I don't, this is not to be like in any way braggadocious, like there was no way I was gonna fail, but once it happened for me and I was gone, like there was no way I was gonna fail because I'm like, I'm not, I'm not going back mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? Like, I'm going to figure this out. Like I have to figure this out. And I think when you're in that mindset, it's slightly different because it's not like, well the will of universe, you know, dictates that you were lucky enough to succeed.

Speaker 8 (00:43:11):

Yeah. And that you get the, like, I don't think it would, it was, it wasn't like that for me. And, and for me it was like, as soon as it happened, as soon as like I made the decision, like I was in a scenario where there was no other option mm-hmm. . And so like, I, I had to completely adjust my life to try and make it, make it work in the short term, like slashing expenses. Mm-hmm. like literally doing the, you know, the spending the bare minimum amount and then doing like whatever I could to start getting Yeah. The, the money in. Um, but I think, I think like for a lot of folks they, they struggle because I, I think it's, I'll give it a try mm-hmm. rather than I have to, I have to make this work like there's no other option but this working and I have to figure it out. Which is a different, I think a different way to approach it. And I know you weren't like pointing out that like your chance, this is a chance you could fail, but that was, um, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:44:10):

That's super, that's super smart. And I think like that ties back into what we were saying about your commitment level mm-hmm. . And I've heard a lot of people say that too. Like, I'll try it out and see what happens. And to me that's a very low commitment, low risk, low investment. Mm. Which means you're not likely to see much reward by the flip side. Right? Yeah. And so you're not going to try hard cuz you've already told yourself this story of if I see results, I'll try harder. Yeah. Well you're not trying hard enough to see results, so you're on a hamster wheel. Like Yeah. Get off the hamster wheel. Yeah. If you're gonna go in, like, I'm not necessarily saying like, quit your job, burn the boats and like go full freelance tomorrow. Definitely have a plan in a savings. Yes. But if you're gonna commit, commit to this thing in episode 20, mat de Perque that unpacks that even more with a story about how she sold a client on a project she didn't even know how to do.

Speaker 1 (00:44:57):

Yet. There there were two main concepts that I wanted to highlight that I think were freaking brilliant in your experience. One was that you had no idea what you were doing, but you just jumped in and said yes and figured it out. Yeah. And by the, through the course of saying yes and figuring it out, you wound up working with people that you could have that honest relationship with where he goes, I like you, I like your writing style. Please write a book for me. And you're like, be honest bro. Never written a book . Be patient with, I'm willing to try, but be patient with me. And he goes, oh hell yeah. Have like, here have 12 times more time than you initially thought I would give you because I like working with you. So this is definitely a relationship-based business versus they're looking for the premier experts.

Speaker 1 (00:45:40):

They're looking for somebody that's gonna either save them the money or charge them an as load of money, uh, because they're an expert. And that, that brings me to the second point rather neatly, which is not all about the money. Smart business owners recognize that if they find someone that they can depend on, who reliably, routinely creates good results for them, whatever that is. If you're a photographer, you're creating amazing portraits. If you are a painter, you're creating amazing landscapes. If you're a baker, you are creating the cakes that everybody wants at their weddings, what whatever it is, people are willing to pay for that, even if it's at a premium. And there are people that are willing to buy at all prices along the spectrum. So stop it with this. Like, writers only make so much. Natalia and I are perfect examples of the fact that you do not have to be a starving writer folks.

Speaker 4 (00:46:32):

Oh God, you don't. Oh yeah. Don't do. Absolutely not do . Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I mean, I only got into copywriting cuz I just got jealous when I met a few copywriters and they were earning a lot more. So I was like, well, I wanna earn more. So I just did it, you know? Mm-hmm. . And that's the thing, I think I was listening to one of your previous podcasts and you had, um, uh, was it Robert, Robert Lucas is this mm-hmm. that you had mm-hmm. . And he was saying how, you know, he taught himself to write sales pages. He just wrote 29 sales pages in 29 days. Mm-hmm. . And I love that. When I heard that, I was like, hallelujah. That's what you do as a writer. Just get out there. Don't say no, just say yes, be honest. Don't, you know, don't blow sh you know, smoke up someone's. Don't do that. Yeah. You know, don't I didn't tell this guy. Oh yes. I've written load of books before, even though I hadn't written any books. I was honest to say I've never written a book before. Mm-hmm. , I've written sales pages and landing pages and emails and all that stuff, but if you are willing to give me a chance,

Speaker 1 (00:47:28):

Hell yes, let's do it. But the key to that, I think too, and I wanna point this out, I wanna highlight it again cuz it's just so important. Um, you didn't sell from your heels, you didn't come at it from a place of insecurity. You came at it with this, like this inner authority, this inner confidence of, yes, I've written all of these other things. I've never written a book honesty, but given all of this experience that I've got, I'm pretty sure I can figure it out. Do you wanna Absolutely. Do you wanna work with me on this? Like, you wanna give me that patience and I, and I'll do my absolute damnedest and they get it. You don't have to come at that from like, well, I've never written a book. I, I think I could do it. Like, the difference between your approach and that like timid approach is night and day speaking of figuring things out. You've been doing that all your life and sometimes you're good at it right off the bat and sometimes you're not from episode 50, Chris Clay breaks it down

Speaker 16 (00:48:23):

When you do something. Like that's one of the big things when you ask me like, what things did I do I care enough about to even talk about? Um, but one of them is exactly that. Like, you just have to get started. Give yourself whatever kind of ammo you need. Like the client that you talked about, that, that first one that I closed, that was like a five figure project and by the way went into way more than that over the course of a year. Um, you know, that all was, you know, all of that was done without, I had no website, I had no email list, I had none of those things. Like, you know, you go, well what proof do you have that you can do all the things. And, um, no proof. There was no proof at all. It was just like, I did it.

Speaker 16 (00:49:03):

We talked it through and it was kind of like, you know, let's see, let's see what it looks like. You know, um, you know, you can do certain things and when you give yourself the chance to just try it, even if it's like hiking, that's starting to build that map, that map, you know, could go onto hiking the appellation trail if you wanted it to, you know? Mm-hmm. , it will go to a lot of things. For me, it's gone into, you know, I have a, a complete, you know, full stack agency at this point and, you know, and I run a mastermind teaching other people how to do it. So, um, you gotta give yourself the chance, even if it's, it's not, you know, it's not failure. It, it is giving your yourself enough, you know, room to actually go, okay, so this, this part didn't work.

Speaker 16 (00:49:47):

I talk a lot about, um, it's one of my favorite phrases is shoe try shoe tieing entrepreneurs. Like every single, every single time you go to tie your shoes when you're a little kid. And I can speak to this well, because I really, really tried to convince people when I was five, um, that I could walk around in Velcro shoes forever cuz I could not get how to tie my own shoes. But really, I was like, I don't understand why adults don't have Velcro. This is way faster and more efficient. It doesn't make any sense. But anyway, point being, I promise this has a point. Um, point being as entrepreneurs every single time, um, and even as a child, every time I tied my shoes or tried every single time, got me one step closer to a completely tied shoe, right? Every time I took the shoelace and put it around the loop, every single time I was getting closer to having my shoes tied.

Speaker 16 (00:50:36):

And once you have them tied, have I ever in my life forgotten to have you know, how to tie my shoes? No, you won't. And it's the same thing. If you send out an email campaign, if you're, you know, if you're an email copywriter and it falls flat, find out where, find out how, how, look at how to look at the data because it's not necessarily that it's bad copy, it's, you know, there's so many things it could be mm-hmm. . So give yourself the chance to try the thing, start the thing, and then learn from there. There's, we give ourselves so much pressure to get everything right the first time as adults, and it's just not a thing. It's no different than when we were kids.

Speaker 1 (00:51:11):

Yeah. I love that because I think, like I've talked about before, how I think of business, especially for people that are new to business, is like, think of it like a lemonade stand. If you didn't have one of those when you were a kid, um, then, then picture a, an industrious entrepreneurial young kid who wants to make a couple quick bucks, sets up a table on the corner on a hot summer day with a little picture of lemonade that they made and starts charging People who walk by for cups of lemonade, they have a thing to sell lemonade. They cold lemonade, they have people to sell it to thirsty people on a hot day. They have a way to take money, uh, cash. And they have a way to get in touch, which is they're sitting out there and people can talk to them. That's really the four major components that you need. Nowhere in there was a website, a merchant processor, like a business license. Although I have heard of some being jerks to children in general, like, you're selling lemonade on my street corner. Are you permitted for that? Like,

Speaker 16 (00:52:06):

Gosh, I have never seen that. That's horrible. Tive

Speaker 1 (00:52:09):

For your face.

Speaker 16 (00:52:10):


Speaker 1 (00:52:12):

. Um, let the kids be entrepreneurs,

Speaker 16 (00:52:14):

Right? Are you kidding me? Course their dreams encourage that. My goodness.

Speaker 1 (00:52:19):

Yeah. Yeah. But like, I think you brought it full circle for me in that line of thinking with me that I think when we g we get, uh, caught up in this need to, I've gotta have all the paperwork filed, I've gotta have all the bank accounts set up, I've gotta get the website right? I gotta get all the offers written and everything like that before we even go out and try to find business that we're trying to build the thing that we don't even know what it looks like yet. Yeah. So we don't have a map for, we don't even know where we're going, so we don't have a map and we're just kind of floundering and then we wonder why we fail.

Speaker 16 (00:52:50):

Exactly. Right. And by the way, there are a couple things I wanna say to that. So first, like even if that kid got out there with that lemonade stand and didn't get make one sale, you know, the kid is not going to come back in and say, that doesn't work. I'm onto something else. Right? Kids are, kids they have, are given a lot more because we are, you know, wonderful, or we try to be wonderful loving parents. You know, they will come back and say, you know what, mom? What if I put strawberries in the lemonade? Would that work? What if I offered iced tea? Somebody asked me for iced tea Today, kids are gonna naturally think of creative solutions, and you do the same thing. It doesn't mean that you're bad at what you're doing, it means that there are other things that you've gotta try, right?

Speaker 16 (00:53:28):

Mm-hmm. . And then just one other point to what you were just saying, I think it's really funny, all those things that you, you know, you said, oh, you would need this, you would need that. My husband, when I was like, I'm gonna start this, I'm gonna do this thing on my own, was like, well, we don't even have a, you don't even have a business plan, you don't have this, you don't have that. And I was like, whatever. I'm, I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna do it. And not because he's, you know, he's wonderfully and supportive in general. It's just that his mammal brain is a lot more, um, drives the bus a lot more than mine does . So, you know, so he was like, you don't have all these things. And I was just kind of like, well, I'm gonna do it and I'm just gonna figure it out as I go. Not that I wasn't just as scared, but, you know, not for nothing. As of January this year, he left his job and he works in my business now, so mm-hmm. , it works. It works. You just have to go and start the thing.

Speaker 1 (00:54:17):

And if you still need convincing, you got this check out, this revelation from Rachel Maza all the way back in episode one. You said something really important that I think a lot of people miss, especially a lot of entrepreneurs as they first start out in their journey. And that is, I trust myself to figure it out. I've seen so many people, even students that I've coached that were starting careers as entrepreneurs, as freelance writers that were just like, I, I don't know what to do. How do I do this? I don't know what to do. You live in the age of Google, my baby doll. You can find out anything with a few keystrokes. Trust yourself.

Speaker 17 (00:54:53):

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm a big proponent for Googling your way to success. I, from the very first business I ever had, the things like how to find clients, like things like that. I've definitely Googled my way through most of the early stages of all of the businesses I've run. And there's been quite a collection

Speaker 1 (00:55:10):

. I know. I would say that like even the, the key to entrepreneurship or in life in general is just being resourceful. You don't have to know what you're doing . You just have to be able to figure it out. Amen to that. Google is your friends. I mean, none of us really knew how to do what we do until we did. At some point. You've actually gotta do the thing in order to learn how to do it best. My mentor, Kevin Rogers talks about that a little bit more in episode 19.

Speaker 18 (00:55:38):

Here we are again, both performers, you're a singer, I was a comic. Uh, and there's just some things that can only develop on a live mic. Mm-hmm. . And I call it, you know, I call it stage time. It is same with writing. Like, you know, as much as I wanna inspire people to practice their copywriting, I know that until you are know, you're writing something that's actually going to get in front of an audience. Mm-hmm. , it's, its, it, it, you find another gear. Right. Um, and so yeah, finding ways to get stage time and watching people evolve because, you know, it's one of the scariest things to, it's a, it is the same with sales calls, right? Mm-hmm. , like the thing we've seen many freelancers avoid for too long, it's like, oh my God, I'm just dreading having a, a sh show up and sell myself. They think of it that way. And what if I say the wrong thing? And if we can convince them to just, it's just a conversation mm-hmm. , and you are vetting them as much as they're vetting you. And then they can kind of calm down. But man, you know, you're, you're, you're fifth, sixth, seventh, you know, quote unquote sales call compared to your first and second or night and day. Yes. You know, you're, you, you, it's just, and you just gotta do it. You just gotta get on stage and do it.

Speaker 1 (00:56:53):

You really do. I'm, I'm so glad you brought up that performance aspect of it too, because I d by now a lot of people know that I'm a singer. What most people don't know is that I avoided singing for years and years and years. Mm-hmm. I knew I wanted to sing. I was terrified to get up on stage in front of people. I, I was just like, I had this super irrational fear of I'm gonna forget the words, I'm gonna blow a big note right. When I'm aiming for it. Yeah. Like, I'm just gonna make a fool of myself. And I actually, this is 2007, I remember it fairly well. I audition, I finally screwed up all the courage and was like, I'm gonna audition for this blues band. They gave me a four song set, like in front of people, in front of a live audience. Wow. They brought in a bunch of singers to do just little mini sets in front of the audience. Hmm. I got on stage, I'm all dressed up. They start the music to the first song of my four songs set. And I completely drew a blank.

Speaker 18 (00:57:50):


Speaker 1 (00:57:50):

Man. Completely drew the blank. And, and the funny thing is that the guitarist, he was also a singer, so that kind of pulled my outta the fire there. But he like gets on his mic and gives me a little bit of the side eye while he is playing and he starts singing the words .

Speaker 18 (00:58:04):


Speaker 1 (00:58:05):

And like, this is what made the difference. I did this instinctively, but I learned so much from this. Instead of stepping back and letting him perform, I jumped in on a harmony with him and just kind of made it up as I went. And the funny thing is, that song sounded great. We got a great reaction. The second song I did the same thing. I forgot the words to the first two songs. my first two of my first set ever as a blue singer. And he did the same thing. He jumped in, I jumped in on harmony. And then for the third and fourth song, we finished strong. I made the bands. It was history. But like my worst fears came true. Yeah. My very first gig. And I survived. And that was like the best thing I could have learned, I think.

Speaker 18 (00:58:45):

Man, that is so great. And you know, I bet, and they probably told you this, but the second reason they wanted you in the band was because you stepped up in that moment mm-hmm. when everything was going wrong. You were like, all right, I'll figure this out. And, and you know, pulled through twice in a row

Speaker 1 (00:59:04):

In an episode 47, Pauline Longden and I ranted about the luck myth then why you'll get the side eye from us if you dare call us. Lucky. So now when I see that kinda spark that you just showed me that I didn't come this far to come this far, that's what I love. Nurturing in people. Yeah. And being like, no, that is enough. I don't care if you don't have money. I don't care if you don't have time. I don't care if you're overwhelmed at home. I see that spark that says, I didn't get this far just to get this far. I'm doing something else. I'm doing something more. And I'm like, yes, come with me my baby. You are mine.

Speaker 4 (00:59:40):

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Because the thing that, um, annoys me is like, then people will look at me and go, ah, you're so lucky. You've had this opportunity, this opportunity. And it's like, what part of it was lucky getting kicked out of the army, nearly driving into a tree, killing myself, not having enough money to go to a thing. Um, having to restart all over again when I got to America. Cause no one knew me. Um, which I, I know other copywriters in Australia wouldn't have handled that. They would've gone, well if this, I'm going back to Australia and I'll get to the, the top down there and I'll just stay there. And, and some of them have mm-hmm. , whereas I just knew that I was born and born and destined for more. So I, what part of it is lucky? I think, um, when people say that you are lucky, it's such a lazy label that they put on you mm-hmm. to make themselves feel comfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):

It's wishing your way to success. And it's absolute. I hate that. Like luck doesn't have a bit of to do with this. Do you know how hard I worked with, I actually had mom listens to this podcast, so I'm, I'm gonna Yeah. I love you mommy. Um, , we had a a little bit of, of a, of a Square off once upon a time. Cuz she said that to me, I think. And then I think she was going through a bit of a rough patch, but she said that like, oh, you're, well, but you don't know what it's like you're lucky you haven't struggled like this. I was like, did you forget that I lived in my car?

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):


Speaker 1 (01:00:57):

Like I lived in my car and was like, this is how much I believed that I was meant to be a writer. I'm living in my car. Yeah. Uh, luck doesn't have anything to do with it. My choices made all the difference. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:10):


Speaker 1 (01:01:10):

Yes. Magic.

Speaker 4 (01:01:12):

And, and that, that's it, isn't it? We always have a choice. And um, you know, often it's the people that, uh, are living in, you know, like the same continent. Like I've, I've had people, like when I've met them at AW i's bootcamp or um, you know, um, also copy Chief Live and things like that. They go, oh, you're so lucky. Or, or even people that would say that, and they don't go to copy Chief Live, but they live in Florida. And I go, what the hell is wrong with you? You don't even have to pay for accommodation and you can't get off your and go to an event that will change your life. Like, what is wrong with you? And yet, I travel halfway around the world and like each trip to America, uh, my partner Ray and I were working out costs us about like $20,000. The holy crap, two airline tickets. There's this, there's accommodation, there's that, and all the rest. We'd lose so much money on the, um, the currency conversion. Everything is like at least a third more we get to America. We have to tip, which we're happy to tip, but as soon as we tip we're, we're instantly paying double the amount that everyone else at the table is paying. Paying because of the currency conversion.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):

Yeah. Oh my

Speaker 4 (01:02:21):

God. People don't realize it. And so I'm just going, you know, saying that I'm, I'm lucky is such a lazy way to give yourself an excuse for you not stepping up and showing up.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):

It really is. And I'm glad you mentioned Copy chief live cuz I think you will appreciate it. Of course you're talking about luck having nothing to do with it in my brain immediately went what luck got to do with it. Nothing . Nothing. Exactly. And you're first guest that I've sang on the podcast, Cool. Plus in episode 16, Brian McCarthy and I dug into why even when you hit your goals, you're far from the finish line, we can get fixated on a goal. Right. I've, I've fallen into this path, I'm starting this business and I'm gonna hit this goal. And we never think about, okay, what happens when you hit the goal? Because it's not like I hit the goal and now I'm dead.

Speaker 8 (01:03:11):

You hit the goal and you feel cool for like a week if you're lucky. And then you think of the next goal and how you gotta crank out to hit that mm-hmm. . Yeah. And then you discover that bringing a laptop to the beach sucks. And you're like, well, whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):

. Yeah. Who stand their laptop. I wouldn't be at the beach to be at the beach. This is ridiculous. Yeah. Uh, this isn't married with children, guys. Like you don't get to be Al Bundy forever living the touchdown football like high school glory days. delight to be

Speaker 8 (01:03:40):

Like, that's something to aspire

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):

To. I know, but

Speaker 8 (01:03:43):

You don't get that. That's false reality. ,

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):

That's false reality. The sitcom. That's not actually reality. But I mean, so many of us think of goals that way too. That like, when I get there, life will be happy. It's then Oh

Speaker 8 (01:03:54):

Yeah, yeah. guess what? All your demons are still with you. Sorry, . Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):

And of course, even when you've figured things out and have reached a place of relative stability, things can still change from back in episode five, Allison Vito shares a harrowing experience from losing a massive amount of business in a relatively short timeframe.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):

So I set up push the business and to help entrepreneurs and that was like 2012 maybe something like that. And then by 2014, so we went through explosive growth to, within weeks we lost 80% of our contracts. Oh

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):


Speaker 3 (01:04:37):

And the other 20% were not far behind. And we had, uh, you know, a substantial team. A lot of them were related to us. The others were like family tours and suddenly zero income. But we had a lease, we had insurance. You know, we had all of these expenses. And um, it was horrendous. It was really incredibly stressful. And I remember a number of times thinking, wow, I set up this business to prevent small business failure and here I am, I'm my own avatar . And yeah, it was, it was really terrible. So we actually sat down, we've been in business now for 28, 29 years. And uh, we actually, we had other crises with the GFC and the recession and Australia and things. But this one we actually looked, we stripped all our assets to keep the business afloat. Our house was attached to the business.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):

And so we actually, this day, I'll never forget it this day, my husband and sons appeared in the afternoon because I would go into town at, you know, si o'clock six in the morning and then I'd come home at lunchtime and in the afternoon I would create courses, things like that in the quiet. And they appeared and they just said, you know, oh, we need to look at a closing. And I, I'm standing there staring at them. I'll never forget it. And I'm thinking, that's the house. That's our livelihood. It's their livelihood. It's, you know, the lovely people at work for us. And I was sort of no . No we're not. Nope. And what I did was I put push on ice. Mm. And so here's a note to everybody. What I did, the only thing I did was I kept up the social media content calendar.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):

Mm-hmm. and I had one team member just keep posting for me each day. So there was, you know, the tiny bit of organic growth you get. But I still had that presence and I just shelved it. And I lived and breathed this funnel that I had. Business mentors tell me couldn't be done. You can't build a funnel for the mining and resources industry. No such thing as the lead magnet. No such thing as, you know, cuz they're not on social media. They don't wanna download your freebie, they don't want your newsletter. You know, it was really interesting. And then, so I just lived and breathed it 20 hours a day and then I would dream about it cuz I just kept thinking, you know, this is our family home and we bought a, we're on acreage and we start out with this teeny tiny house that we added as we added children.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):

Cuz we have six children. And uh, and I was sort of, no, no, no, no, no, this isn't happening. So I just kept strategizing and reading everything I could. I had studied neuro leadership, so I had all sorts of growth mindset activities that everybody, I would just hound them, I'd stick them on the wall around the office. Um, and like for me it was things like, I'm not good at marketing yet. Hmm. You know, this funnel isn't working yet. Yeah. And so yet it's still one of my favorite words. And so we would really, you know, just pump it. And I'd say to them, look, if there are a hundred thousand projects out there, even if there's been 90% collapse, because the industry had, you know, a catastrophic downturn. Everybody, a lot of people we knew were going under businesses were failing every day. And of course I kept hearing things like, there's nothing out there. Mm-hmm. There are no projects. And I was sort of there, ah, we can't think like that. And so I sat there one day and we, we were having a barbecue and I was sitting looking at my husband and he looked at me and he goes, what? And I said, I've just realized you are a leaf magnet

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):

. That's so you

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):

Are the leaf magnet. You are what these people want. He has 40 years experience in a very niche industry. And we've traveled, you know, we moved 20 times in 15 years. So he worked on, you know, projects. His resume is amazing. And I thought you are the lead magnet. That,

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):

That is a creative solution if I have ever heard one. Yes. What is

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):

It they say is the mother, mother of creation. Oh

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):

Yeah. Desperation. Necessity is the mother of, of invention.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):

. I was thinking desperation. So I looked at, you are a lead magnet. So what we did, we actually wrote an email and we were getting these emails that weren't getting open. We were, you know, building this funnel into LinkedIn because that's where of course, um, that community hangs out. So we sent out an email saying, and the, the subject line was, we need to have a coffee.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):


Speaker 3 (01:09:46):

Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):


Speaker 3 (01:09:50):

Simple. They wanted . Yes. And then I realized because, so my background is like, I love teaching and I had founded and you know, developed a charity in Vietnam where I developed training for blind, young, blind people living in poverty. Mm-hmm. . So training and teaching is my thing. You know, I just love, love, love it. So when they sort of cornered me and said, you need to take over the business, my response was we need to have training involved, you know, for me to be at all happy and it needs to finance the charity mm-hmm. because you know that that was going to impact it. So I was looking at him and I thought, what do we have that others don't have? Because if 99% of the contracts are gone, you know, and I kept saying this, so even if we, there were a hundred thousand and now there's only 10,000 or even 5,000, we only want three or five. Yeah. You know, so it's just a much, much smaller pond. And so we need to be more creative.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):

And of course when you're figuring things out on the fly and pivoting, you're bound to hit the wall eventually from episode 46. Alison Cario and I dig into y rest and self-care are critical to your success. Yeah. I think it's interesting that you talk about the feelings involved in this. And then when you said sleep, I was over here just like, we need to talk about sleep. Cuz I, you know, I coach a lot of writers as well and I had someone on the team that I was working with on a series of emails recently that I actually had to say, Hey, so I feel like I'm momming you here a little bit. Excuse me for, you know, being a parental figure here for a minute, how much are you sleeping? Hmm. Because I feel like you're staying up all night to get these drafts done. And it shows in the work. Like, I actually would prefer that you get more sleep than staying up all night to get this to me and like, tell me I need an extra day. I'm sorry to slip this deadline, but like, I haven't had any sleep. It's okay. Like, talk to me, get some sleep. Take care of your mind. Take care of your body. It's, yeah. You're gonna do that much better work for not pushing yourself to that absolute limit. Like, ugh.

Speaker 19 (01:12:03):

Yeah. That's so true. And you know, I in, in times like those, sometimes I always like to think of like, what would 60 year old Allison say? Like, would she say Yeah, it was a good thing that you lost those nights of sleep for that copy project ? Yes. Or would she be like, no, it was really good that you, you know, really prioritized your health and your sleep, you know, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):

. Hey, thanks for taking me out on a walk all those years ago. Uh, my joints future, future Allison's joints. Thank you, uh, for helping us get some sleep.

Speaker 19 (01:12:34):

. Exactly. Exactly. Joints, you know, skin, whatever, whatever you wanna use. . Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):

. Okay. I'm on like a skin improvement journey recently. And I, I also didn't realize the power of like your life habits. It's not just how you wash your skin or what you put on your skin, but what, what you eat, how much you're sleeping, how much you're going out in the sun. Like stuff that I just never bothered to learn at any point in, in my upbringing. And so yeah, it's all interconnected. Like I don't understand how so many people separate their body from their business. It is your

Speaker 19 (01:13:10):

Business. Yeah. Yeah. I mean yeah. Cuz if you think about it, like, if, if you were to get really sick tomorrow, you know, and let's say you don't have team members mm-hmm. , like, let's imagine you don't have team members or maybe you have a really small team who maybe quite depend on you. Like how would you, how would you be able to, um, still support yourself mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):

. Yeah. I think one of our mutual friends Kevin talks about, uh, how long could your business run without you mm-hmm. . And ever since I first heard that question, I was like, Ooh, okay. So that's something that I wanna work on in my business on figuring out how to make sure that it can run without me. If I need to take time to recover. If I need time because I found a really interesting restaurant and I wanna be gone off the beaten path for a couple days, having an adventure . Um, there, there are multiple reasons beyond I need to rest because I got sick to take time off work. Yes. And they're all okay.

Speaker 19 (01:14:07):

. Yes. Rest. I'm, I'm a big fan of rest. And um, I, so I used to go to this co-working space before it closed in the pandemic. R i p and I was very much known as the, the person who would take naps throughout the day in the very like, public place. Like there was this bench there, there were pillows, people would walk back and forth. There was like a high traffic area and I would still take naps throughout the day. Like I just, yes. I just need those naps. ,

Speaker 1 (01:14:34):

They never get the video. But I'm over here doing like the Freddie Mercury fist in the air. Like yes, I am the nap person too. When I used to do those big in-person conferences and I was on staff, all of my team members knew that if I disappeared in the middle of the days, it's nap time.

Speaker 19 (01:14:50):


Speaker 1 (01:14:50):

Yes. She'll be back in like 30 minutes, maybe an hour. If she's really tired, it'll, it'll be okay. , uh, guys, you're dealing with a much better, Angie, when Angie takes a nap. I'm just telling you.

Speaker 19 (01:15:00):

. Yes. Yeah. And I mean I, it's, I think like growing up going to private school, like we just weren't allowed to take breaks or take any rest. Like we always had to be go go go kind of thing. You couldn't waste any time. And that's something I've really had to unlearn, um, especially in the past year in, in running my business is like, breaks are actually good. Mm-hmm. , like it's okay to take breaks. Like you don't, breaks aren't a sign of weakness. Rest is an a sign of weakness. It is actually something that you are doing for yourself so you can show up and, you know, show up with that energy. And people will notice when you are more energized rather than like feeling like you really had to be there. You dragged yourself out of bed. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):

. Absolutely. And you know, an interesting conversation came up on another episode I recorded, um, where we were talking about flipping that script about feeling guilty that you're not filling up all of your time with just activities and go, go, go, go, go. If you think in the past about what we had to do to make a business work, you had to sew your own garments. You had to find someone that could make your shoes. These things would take days and materials sourced from overseas and you would wear them forever. Like, it took so much time in the past just to make the food, make the clothes, get ready for work, go out and actually plow the field. And those are all things that technology has eliminated for a lot of us.

Speaker 19 (01:16:27):

Mm-hmm. , . I,

Speaker 1 (01:16:29):

I think instead of feeling guilty that that time is not filled with activities, like maybe celebrate, like I'm, I'm incredibly fortunate to be in this position to be able to work online and take the space that I need. Okay, cool. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take some space and I'm gonna figure out how to make my little corner of the world a better place instead of filling my time with

Speaker 19 (01:16:47):

. Yeah. Really. I love really, really, um, leaning into that gratitude. And another way I think about that too. Cause I think about guilt a lot. Me too. Thank you. Thank you. Catholic church for that

Speaker 1 (01:17:02):

Mm-hmm. and all of womanhood appreciate your

Speaker 19 (01:17:04):

Input. Yes. Not, and my parents, um, they, they're immigrants from the Philippines. So like when they came here, they're very much under survival mode. And when you're in survival mode, you're like constantly working. You're on this like endless hamster wheel noth you're, you're always behind. Um, and you know, you all have this like, fear of like losing everything, of not having enough money, losing all your money. Um, this, this severe like lack of control. Um, so, so that level of like overworking is something that I learned from my parents and mm-hmm. You know, when you hear the, the, the phrase like immigrants, we get the job done. Like that's where it comes from. And also like that, that served my parents' generations and the generations before us and we don't have to do that anymore. Mm-hmm. , we don't have to keep doing that. We don't have to, um, stay in survival mode. We can move more towards the thriving mode. And I think that's where rest really plays a big piece in it is, you know, we have the luxury of rest now, so here's it. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):

, here's one that broke my brain a little bit. Realizing that you don't have to avoid feeling feelings to be a professional. Episode 45, Carla, Amanda Brown and I break down why we prefer freaking out to putting on a front. Alright, well we were talking a little bit about the show, about this idea of stepping stones cuz I know a lot of people that are starting their businesses kind of trip up on the what do I do part. Cause it feels like that's the, that's the key. If I don't figure out what I do, I'm either gonna be stuck or like if I pick the wrong thing, I'm never going to achieve the goals. So let's talk a little bit, let's dive into that a little bit deeper. Stepping stones on the path.

Speaker 20 (01:18:47):

Absolutely. Um, well I guess I'll say right now I'm at a transition point from one stepping stone to another. And, and actually I've got a few to choose from. Like, I'm not sure like where I'm gonna go next or am I gonna straddle a few? Which 1:00 AM I going to dig into for the next however long God wants me to, to stay there and do the thing. Um, but I, I wanna tell a story from a handful of years ago, I was having a quarter life crisis and looking for a job anywhere many miles away from where I was. I just needed to go and I had in mind, okay, keep in mind again, quarter life crisis. I'm thinking what am I gonna do for the rest of my life? Mm-hmm. as I'm applying to jobs, some of which I couldn't even afford to get to the interviews for, but I'm applying all over the place hoping and praying that I would get something and tripped up on, I have to think positive thoughts, I have to think positive thoughts or else I won't get the job. And I basically had a breakdown in my like, uh, spiritual positive bypass state and just trying to run at the same time to figure out the thing that I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. It was absolutely ridiculous. Um, and thankfully I had a mentor in my life who I could call and have this breakdown with and have her say, okay Carla, breathe

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):

Need somebody in our life that can say that. Just breathe.

Speaker 20 (01:20:42):

Breathe. Oh, exactly. Breathe with, lets start with basics. Mm-hmm. and give yourself an opportunity to like have your freak out. It's life, it's real. And why are you trying to figure out what you're gonna do for the rest of your life? Mm-hmm. , how about you look at the next year or two years mm-hmm. move from one stone to the next and when you get there, especially since you're moving, then figure out the next piece. Mm. And so that was huge. It was monumental for me who had been such a planner and um, pushed to plan and to say a thing and do a particular thing and make that happen. So to be able to have some freedom and this idea of taking life in shorter chunks was really useful.

Speaker 1 (01:21:40):

Ooh, I love that. And you said, I've been making notes while you were talking cuz you said a a couple things that I really wanna spotlight. One was this concept of toxic positivity. You didn't use those words, but I'm gonna go ahead and slap that label on there , because I, I've fallen into that trap too myself of like, if I'm not thinking positive, can I even achieve this thing? But then what really happens is you wind up and this is my amateur hour diagnosis of what happened in my own head. So y'all are gonna have to be understanding with me real quick. But the way I see it was I'd have my freak out and go, no, that's bad. Stop that. Put it out the happy bait. And then as I'm bearing these feelings, I'm kind of putting them under pressure. And then in a moment of weakness or stress, they all just come boiling out.

Speaker 1 (01:22:23):

Like I like to imagine, um, if you've seen those videos of a pressure cooker literally exploding and like the stove explodes and shatters inward and the lid is buried in the ceiling and this thing has just completely blown to bits. That's what happens to me when I bury my feelings and I don't actually let myself freak out. So now I have a trick, and I don't know if this is acceptable in, uh, therapy or counseling circles, but I've set a timer and, and during the 15 minute freak out, which I like to call it, I can say or do whatever I want, spiral as deep as I wanna go. And then when the 15 minutes are over, it's time to get to work.

Speaker 20 (01:22:59):

Yes. Well that's exactly what she told me. . Oh nice. That's

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):

Exactly, it's a small world.

Speaker 20 (01:23:06):

Yes. She said, give yourself time, do that thing and then move on.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):

Mm-hmm. . And then if it like, and that's not to clarify for anybody listening, I'm not saying you only have 15 minutes to freak out. Like, I'm giving myself 15 minutes to freak out right now and then I'm gonna go do the work and that. And you'll find that that kind of dulls the intensity of the feelings that you've processed them. Let them pass through your body. Cause like I'm, I get those physical sensations in my body too when I'm like super stressed that the shoulders wind up around my ears. Um, I'm saying that this is the freak out that we're focused on right now. Kind of like you said in the future there's probably gonna be another one, at which point I will set another 15 minute timer and freak out again and then get back to work. And that's how we pull ourselves forward through all of the free

Speaker 20 (01:23:49):

. Absolutely. Keep your freak out timer handy.

Speaker 1 (01:23:53):

Speaking of freaking out, I loved having pilot Jodi Robinson on the show back in episode 28. Here's how you can use her experience in training and avoiding air disasters to keep your head on straight when times get tough. I don't know how much you can tell us about actual military training cuz , that would, I think that would be fascinating. But like, how did you result when you're in the cockpit and you're having to pretend to be by yourself even though, you know, you've kind of got that back up. How, how do you even begin to process that? I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot here with this, but I'd love to hear more about that. Well,

Speaker 21 (01:24:29):

Um, from the beginning when you go to a career aircraft, you uh, you learn a lot of, um, what we call crew, crew resource management. So they really start shifting you, you study a lot of airplane accidents basically. Hmm. And all the things that went wrong and all the communication breakdowns, because generally when an airplane, no one wants to hear about this, but when an airplane crashes, generally somebody in the cockpit had the answer. Hmm. And at least early on, especially when they started developing these in the 1970s through the early eighties and nineties when they were creating this, this concept of crew resource management, they found that there was a problem with communication within the cockpit. People didn't wanna admit they didn't know something or they, they were tasked, saturated and didn't know it or all these other things. And generally you would find that somebody knew the answer mm-hmm.

Speaker 21 (01:25:16):

And they were right there. So that's, you know, that's why it's so important to have that network of knowledgeable people mm-hmm. because usually they can see something that you don't, whether it's an instructor sitting behind you in the seat going, Hey Jody, you landed 10 feet right of center line and here's what I saw happen, and then I can take that information and fix what I did wrong and never do that again. It's like, well Angie, I I just really messed up this interview with this client and I think I chart, I I I said this thing wrong. And you are like, well, what did you say? And then you can go, oh, well don't do that. This, do it this way. And then I learned to do better. Mm-hmm. , you know, cause that's, it's kind of the same concept.

Speaker 1 (01:25:54):

Yeah. And I think that's a really cool point to make too, because so much of, especially freelancing, like learning how to get good at the craft is happening in your head. Right. You're practicing alone in a room. We're, we're both writers. So like, you know, 80% of my job is sitting alone at the computer coming up with ideas and then like, and it feels like a good idea at the moment. Or maybe like you've, you've got a good angle or a good concept and this is feeling really good in the writing. And then the nerves kick in and you start second guessing yourself and you start editing it a little bit too much and rearranging things. And like, you Frankenstein it together with pieces of other things cuz you're overthinking it and then you're scared to put it out there because you're not confident on it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):

And like, this is how a lot of people could, I could just like in the cockpit could fall into the danger zone of they're not sharing enough of what's going on, even if they're struggling cuz they don't, they wanna look like they're not struggling. So, I mean, I know, and that kind of on the surface sounds contradictory to what I was saying. Like, nobody wants to hear from a nervous, uh, pilot. There are certain people that should hear from a nervous pilot, probably the people in the, the tower, but not the people in the passenger part of the plane.

Speaker 21 (01:27:08):

. Right. Well, I mean, there's always ways to talk to each other. Even the cockpit when you don't know something that doesn't sound like you're terrified because you're usually not , you know mm-hmm. that, you know, you can go, Hey, hey man, this is my plan. Like if I'm the aircraft commander, this is, this is what's happened. This is my plan, these are the checklists we're gonna run. Am I missing something?

Speaker 1 (01:27:31):

Mm-hmm. .

Speaker 21 (01:27:32):

And that allows them to go. Or you start even better. You go, okay, what would you, what, what do you want it, what do you think we should do right now? Because sometimes when the leader says their plan, everybody go, okay. Mm-hmm. , let's just go with that. Cuz they, they, they couldn't possibly be wrong. They're more experienced than I am, blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, they may have had a good idea that they totally disregarded because of that. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, there's, there's ways to communicate.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):

And last but certainly not least, my friend Chris or Kowski dropped a knowledge bomb back in episode four all about why we do what we do and what matters most when you get to the end of the road.

Speaker 22 (01:28:12):

And I'm not really competing against other people. I'm not trying to, I'm just trying to compete against myself. And I heard this great quote this one time, I can't, maybe it was from Scott Adams, I can't remember exactly. He said that you should never be envious of only one quality or one thing that someone else has. Right. Like, unless you're willing to trade every aspect of your life with that person. And I was like, that is a really good, especially for me, like that is a really good way to reframe everything. Like there's, there'll be people with businesses that you see, or books that they've written or just things that they've done in their life and you say, wow, like, I wish I could have that. But unless you're really willing to trade every single aspect of your life for every single aspect of their life and all the history and the journey and the, the where they were born and like all all that stuff. Right. Unless you're willing to swap every single aspect of your life with theirs, there's no point. That always kind of keeps me grounded as well.

Speaker 1 (01:28:58):

No, I like that. And that's such a good point that there are a lot of people out there and I, I've been there certainly in my life. It's, it's only human to look at what someone else has and man, I'd give anything for that. Do you know how early they get up, what kind of work they do? What kind of side hustle they have? You know, I've, I've heard people talk about that, the context of Olympic athletes, right? I'd love, I'd give anything to be standing on that podium with them. Okay, well, are you getting up at four o'clock in the morning and doing four hour workouts and ? You know, would you give anything or is that just something that you're telling yourself? Yeah. And I think that's kind of a key marker of success potential is it not necessarily are you gonna beat your body into the dirt and do four hours of practice?

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):

Like much respect to Olympic athletes. I'm never gonna be there and I'm totally, totally fine with the fact that I'm never gonna be on that podium . But you know, by the same token, you, you kind of mentioned the same thing. If you, if you don't get your shot in, in 30 seconds in the ring, are you gonna stop fighting? I've, I've used that analogy with some coaching students in mine too in the past with, if you trip and fall down flat on your face, do you just lay down and wait for death to take you? Like, that's it. I'm done. Leaves piling on you. Yeah. Bikers riding over you like you're a speed bump. ,

Speaker 22 (01:30:15):


Speaker 1 (01:30:16):

I just, I can't imagine in any world where, where people would think falling down means that's it. I'm done. But we see it so often in entrepreneurship, like, I make one misstep and I'm done, and ugh, I'm here to change that. I'm, I'm happy you're here to help me change that too.

Speaker 22 (01:30:32):

Yeah, absolutely. And it, it's one of those things too where like, I, I think the, the joy and excitement in life, it doesn't come from times when you are sitting in a hammock on the beach and you have no cares in the world. Like when you look back, I don't know, maybe, you know, I'm, I'm not at the end of my life, obviously, you know, when I'm sure I'm 80 or 70 or 90 or however, a hundred, hundred 50, who knows what medicine nowadays, right? I, I think when, when you look back at the end of your life, you probably look at the defining moments, the moments where you succeeded because you were low scared or at least you, you swung for the fences and tried something that maybe you were scared to do. I don't think it comes from the comfort, I think it comes from the struggle. Those, those moments when you look back the, the members that you cherished most.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):

And so we've reached the end of episode a hundred. Celebrating the best of the first 50 episodes of Permission to Kick was so hard to pick these clips because every single guest had some amazing insights to share. In fact, when I did the first cut of this episode, it clocked in at a massive three hours and 58 minutes. And that was before I recorded this script. Introducing each segment. With the help of my talented team, we were able to narrow it down to insanely smart advice and insight from brilliant business people. Quick shout out here to the team that made this episode possible. Amy Cook, who handles all my booking and keeps the production running, you also helped me pick the new music for the show. And I hope you're really enjoying that. James Eid, who edits the show and makes everyone sound like a total, total rockstar.

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):

Claire Ferna, who writes the show notes and comes up with hilarious and insightful takes, you should see some of the cutting room floor notes that have us rolling. Linda and Dungu, who listened to every single one of the first 50 50 episodes to have pulled the most interesting and most funny moments. Laura Valenti, who created the show Graphics for us, both for the first hundred episodes and the brand new look you're seeing from this point forward. And of course, my most sincere thanks to you for listening, for sharing, for writing in to tell me when something made you laugh or change the way you do things. I read every single note and I share it with my guests whenever you leave compliments or tell me how something changed your life that really keeps me going. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate you for taking the time to listen. I'm looking forward to the next a hundred interviews and beyond. Thank you so much for being with me on this journey and let's go kick some. That's all for now. If you wanna keep that kick energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dosage. If you can do it, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Permission to Kick show on Apple Podcast Spotify and wherever you stream your podcast. I'm your host, Angie Coley, and I'm here rooting for you. It's for listening. And let's go kick some.