Permission to Kick Ass

18: April Dykman

Episode Summary

Ever watch Office Space? Put it on your list if you’ve ever worked a desk job. Part of what makes it so funny is how infuriatingly REAL it is. Today’s guest is April Dykman, and she’s no stranger to Office Space absurdity in real life… down to impossible expectations and clueless bosses. Tune in to hear how she worked up the courage to quit for good, and how she now commands top dollar with her copywriting clients.

Episode Notes

I love this episode for multiple reasons – it’s like a crash course in quitting. We start with all the reasons to leave (along with all the fears likely to keep you stuck in a dead-end job). Then we dig deep into the realities of working with clients in different capacities (including on retainer). And we end with money talk: how to confidently walk away from a project, what to do when all your business disappears during a global pandemic, and how to charge for the value you deliver (vs what you think they can afford). 

Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:

This one is jam-packed full of awesome. Don’t miss out - listen now!

April’s Bio:

April Dykman is a control-beating copywriter who writes winning campaigns for high-profile clients like Mirasee, Advanced Bionutrionals, T. Harv Eker, and more. She also works directly with copywriting legend Parris Lampropoulos – collecting royalty checks for writing control copy with Parris.

Resources and links mentioned:

Come kick ass with me:

Episode Transcription

Angie Colee (00:02):

Welcome to permission to kick ass a podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee. Let's get to it. Welcome back to permission to kick ass. I'm so excited today because you are all going to meet my friend April Dykman say hello, April.

April Dykman (00:27):

Hi guys.

Angie Colee (00:30):

I love this because you're in a mastermind with me and we've known each other for many years now, but tell, tell everybody listening a little bit about yourself, please.

April Dykman (00:37):

Yeah, so I am a marketing consultant and copywriter. Um, my work is split amongst a few things. What is, um, you know, working on my own, um, projects that are related to copywriting and helping people write better. Copy. I also take on, um, beat the control assignments, which is, you know, the really long sales letters that you see in the mail and everywhere else. And, you know, copywriters are competing to beat each other and when the royalties, which is really fun. Um, and then for, um, uh, you know, some select clients, I function as their copy chief. So, um, they have a copywriting team and they need somebody to come in and make suggestions to make it better, make it sell more. So that's kind of like my little mix,

Angie Colee (01:20):

Right? That's a hassle. And for, for everybody that's listening, that's new to the show. You know, that I T I love copywriters. I'm a copywriter little background is that basically copywriters are like sales writers. You know, we were sales people multiplied because we do it through the written word. So when April talks about a control, that's usually something that has made the most sales to date. So people keep running it over and over and over again. So it's almost like a game, a competition among copywriters to beat the control. It's, it's a lot of fun get super competitive people, knock each other off after like two, three months, these days get super fast. But yeah, there's like all kinds of prestige and notoriety in the copywriting industry that comes around being a control beater and getting those royalty checks from the ongoing sales. It's a lot of fun. So we were talking a little bit beforehand, uh, before we started recording about and I love this story. You and I both have a similar situation where we were getting really, really fed up with the day job and had to talk ourselves off that ledge into quitting and believing that working for ourselves was a way better option. So you want to speak a little to that?

April Dykman (02:25):

Yeah. So this was, um, you know, I guess it's been about 10 years now, um, which is awesome. Like what a great anniversary quitting my job. Um, and so I was working at a, um, it's the association of school boards. Um, so it's a nonprofit, but it's a very in Texas, our school board association is a very large, like 400 something employee nonprofit. Um, and I was working in marketing and it was, um, I feel like it's about as good as an office job could possibly ever be yet. I hated it with every fiber of my being the first year was good. The second year is like when the shine is wearing off and you're starting to see kind of some of the cracks and how things really are as opposed to how the organization was sold to you. Um, and then year three was just dedicated to getting out of there as quickly as I could.

April Dykman (03:19):

Um, it was just, you know, the typical bureaucracy, like the office politics. Um, we had meetings about how many meetings we have. Yeah. And, and like the parallels between like my life and like Peter Gibbons of office space. It was crazy. Like that movie almost became not funny to me for a period of my life, because I was like, no, it's not funny when you're living it. And so, yeah, I just, I remember I had this job review and, um, basically I was, you know, getting dinged because they said I was behind not accounting for the fact that, you know, they had just dropped this really huge project in my lap. They had not taken anything else off my plate. And I had twice asked, you know, can I work overtime because I can't get this done. And both times they just wouldn't answer my question.

April Dykman (04:08):

Um, and so I, you know, I remember sitting in that review and I was just stunned. And I was like, but I asked for overtime. And they said, my boss said, well, we were, um, looking for you to come up with another solution. And I was like, so what would that be like working for free? I don't, you know, like, yeah, like sprinkling magic, pixie dust and making it all happen. Um, so that was, that was the moment when I really decided, you know, before there had been a lot of times where I was really mad about something, I was like, I'm going to get out. And then it would kind of die down like that rage would die down until something else happened. And then this was the final where I was like, I can't like, I can't get complacent again. I have to make this happen.

April Dykman (04:51):

I cannot be, you know, there were people there that were celebrating their 20th or 30th year anniversaries. And I just remember thinking like, Oh my God, that is me. I like, I don't even know what I'll do. Like, I, I, I can't even imagine, like for one thing, I will not be celebrating anything if that's the case. And so, yeah. So that was the day I created my document. Um, I've told you about, which is reasons to quit, where I just started making a list of all of the reasons why I needed to quit my job, why I hated my job, why I wanted something different. And I would read that on at least a weekly basis, if not daily, just to remind myself like, just to like, kind of stoke those fires and keep that. I mean, really, if I'm being honest, it was rage. Like you can see, I feel like sugarcoat until you like, Oh, it was just my motivation. I know I was really off and I needed to stay off and that's just how I function. And so sometimes,

Angie Colee (05:47):

I mean, we talked about this a lot in copywriting too. Cause you have to understand in order to, to be able to persuade someone. And I don't mean it in an unethical way where like you trick someone into buying, but like to show them that this is for them, you often have to show them the, the pain of staying where they are is greater than making a change because otherwise we will all resist making a major change because fear of the unknown as well,

Speaker 3 (06:10):

scary.

Angie Colee (06:12):

I'm kind of mad in retrospect that like, after I finally got up the gumption to leave, my job is when you and I started talking and you gave me this great idea. I'm like, that really would've helped.

Speaker 3 (06:24):

Well, now you can pass it on to others.

April Dykman (06:28):

Um, yeah. So, so it was about a year later. I was. Um, so at the time I was also starting to write, um, content. This was before I discovered the world of copywriting. So, um, I was writing blogs for personal finance sites and I got this other gig where it was kind of like a little bit of more SEO type writing, but they had a ton of work for me, which was really good. And so I just kept building this up until I was making the same amount each month that I was making at my job, which you know, that period of my life was kind of hell because I'm working, you know, at a job full time. And then I'm, you know, I've got this other thing that I'm working at. Um, and when I hit that point, I was like, okay, well now I've done it.

April Dykman (07:09):

So now, now I need to quit. And there's definitely that like fear, like, okay, I can be as mad. I can be raging. I can be. But I still had to have that moment where I was like, Oh, I guess, I guess now, I guess now is it I'm going to quit? And then, you know, all of these fears that creep in like, well, what if like, what if one of these kids dries up? Like, what if, like, what if I lose them? What do I, you know, this other thing is a steady paycheck. That I'm pretty much guaranteed. Um, or at least that's, I don't feel that way anymore, but that's, that was my thinking at the time.

Angie Colee (07:39):

People believe that though, like that the job is steady and it's much more guaranteed and I'm, you know, I'm not ever gonna, you won't hear me say I'm glad for 2020, but I think that one of the good takeaways that people can get from that, especially if they're interested in becoming an entrepreneur is 2020 is the year when a lot of people lost their jobs through no fault of their own. They did absolutely nothing wrong. And yet the job was gone and it wasn't even there. It wasn't like the boss mismanaged money or anything like that. But something happened that nobody could predict and everybody was out of a job. Like, I mean, I'm not trying to laugh or make light. Yeah.

April Dykman (08:15):

So like, uh, one of my aunts who's worked for a company got like, as long as I, I I've known like decades and the company is going under right now. Um, so it's an event planning company, which, you know, kind of surprised that they even made it this long. But, um, yeah. Yeah. So, and, and now my view is more like, you know, I mentioned that I have this, this happy mix of things that I do. And that is actually what makes me feel secure today. If I, I was approached by one of those chiefing companies that I, um, consult for about working full-time and that actually scares me, like going full-time with a company is to me far more scary now than what I have, because at any moment, if one of my three, you know, income streams dries up or something happens, okay, well, I have the other two to focus on as opposed to a company which, you know, like something could go wrong or the company could be having a bad year. I mean, anything could happen. And then poof, like all of your income is gone

Angie Colee (09:13):

And that's, so I'm glad that you brought that up because I think that's a thing that a lot of people starting a business for the first time or growing their business get scared of like, will I be able to find multiple clients? Will I be able to work for multiple clients? Isn't it more stable, you know, kind of going back into that employee mindset to just have one retainer client that pays most of my bills and to a certain extent. Yeah. Like having one retainer client really helps with the confidence as you're growing your business, knowing that you're going to pay your bills every month, but it's kind of that same thing as a job. Like you're putting all of your eggs in this one basket and hoping that nothing ever happens to them so that nothing happens to your income and revenue.

April Dykman (09:50):

Right. Right. And things, you know, even with clients, because I've been in that position too, where one of my clients is, you know, the bulk of my income and I'm really dependent on them and things change with them as well. Like I have this one client I absolutely loved, they decided to start the second business and kind of put me over there in the second business. And it was something that I just wasn't into. Like they were super into it. I wasn't. So it was sort of making my work, not as much fun. And I mean, it wasn't like anybody did anything wrong, but I just didn't love it anymore, but I still had to do it because I was so dependent on them. And so it's one of those things like, you know, if you land that big retainer client, for sure, like, that's, that's amazing, but don't just rest on that. Like keep working to, you know, get something else, whether it's your own stuff, a new client, whatever it is.

Angie Colee (10:38):

And I think that's a good point too. Cause that reminds me, I didn't make sense to me until after I started seeing the logic of that, like have multiple income streams in case one dries up. And also, you know, the F-you fund everybody on this podcast has heard me rant about the F U funds, but put money in savings. It is freedom to walk away from something that is frustrating you, and it turns potential emergencies or catastrophes into something that is urgent, but will not wreck your life. So rant over Angie that's. So off the soapbox

April Dykman (11:09):

Back to that too, because I actually had for the first time of, I needed to use, um, the FEU fund this year. So we can talk about that.

Angie Colee (11:18):

No, we're going to come back to that. But if somebody wants to buy all your time and you're comfortable selling all your time as a business owner, that's cool, but it better be really expensive so that you have a lot of money that you can put into that, you know, the aforementioned F U fund in case that relationship ever, and sometimes relationships dissolve through, they run their course, they reach their natural ends. This project is over that. Like there's any number of reasons that relationships and other than we hate each other. So just come into business, knowing that like, this is a relationship business, and sometimes people grow and change and move on and for now is not forever. So cover your ass please. All right. Tell me about the F you fund, I wanna hear this story.

April Dykman (12:03):

Yeah, well, and quickly, I want to add, like for sure that it does make sense for some people to go full-time with the company, if you have that, you know, that fund so that you can leave if you need to. It's just my personal personally, it scares me now. And so it's like the exact opposite of where I was when I was an employee where to leave a stable thing. And I'm like, ah, I'm so scared to go work for any one person. Um, but yeah, so the F U fund, so I, um, took this project on, um, it was a, we'll say in the supplement space and, um, it was somebody who was coming from finance and wanted to cash in on supplements. Cause that's, you know, a big scene right now. And, um, he had a collagen product and he wanted me to write a sales page for it. And so, you know, I do all the research and writing the sales page and then, um, come to find out, he basically wants me to rip off this other supplement sales page for very, very similar product, like similar ingredients. And I was like, so I don't really do that. That's not

Angie Colee (13:08):

Right. And he's like, well,

April Dykman (13:08):

I'm not saying plagiarize. I'm just saying like, I want to do this, this, this, that, the other. And I'm like, okay, well that's, that's there. It's like that. That is what they are writing and I'm not willing to do that. And I was like, so I was like, you know, you, we can part ways. Um, cause like we just, we're not going to see eye to eye on this. Um, we, you know, had some conversations and that became clear. I said, you know, we can part ways you can keep what I've already worked on. Um, and not pay the other half of the fee. Or I said, we can just like part ways you don't take the copy, I'll refund you everything. Um, which is a really powerful place to be in to be able to say like, I'm going to refund you this like $8,000 because I don't feel good about this project.

April Dykman (13:54):

And I don't feel good about what you're asking me to do and I'm not that kind of a copywriter. Um, so that's what he wanted to do. And then what's really funny. So right before, right before I propose this, I revoked his access to the Google doc that I had written. And so then I send this, I propose it and then he emails me back and he was like, I'll just take the refund. And then he emails me again. And he's like, I see that you've already revoked access to the Google doc. That's fine. And I was like, Oh, why wouldn't you in there? If you just told me you didn't want the copy I had written, what are you doing in there? Yeah. So, I mean, and that just reinforced like, Oh my gosh, I'm so glad I can just get out of this because this was clearly not somebody that I wanted to work with.

Angie Colee (14:38):

[inaudible] see. That's such a good point too, because I think a lot of a big mistake that a lot of aspiring entrepreneurs make is they basically repeat their job and that's not a bad thing. Like you're not doing anything wrong. It's, it's natural because if you've been an employee for all or most of your life, of course, you're going to just like apply what you know, to this new situation. But really becoming an entrepreneur is about learning to think in a different way. Kind of like you pointed out with, you know, before I worked, full-time for this one employer and now that scares me. It's a totally different frame of mind that you don't really understand until you've gone through it. And you know, if, if this guy was your entire source of revenue or heaven forbid you were in his employee... geez, I always feel bad for companies like that because newsflash, if you're in the States, the alphabet agencies are coming for you.

Angie Colee (15:31):

If you are unethical, they will find you eventually, but that's a rant for another day. Um, but you know, something like that, that makes you just feel like after you get off the phone, you have to take a shower. Like I don't like this. This makes me feel if, if doing that work is the only thing that pays your bills. And you've got to choose between feeling like a slime ball and going hungry for the month. Like this business is going to make you feel miserable and it's going to make you feel like you have to go crawling back to the job where you were miserable. So like, don't try not to repeat all the things that made you miserable in the day job in this business that you're building. Like, yes, F U Fund, work with people that light you up, not people that make you go, Oh, that's slimy. I was just, people can't see

April Dykman (16:13):

And listen to those red flags like that. So often even when I was new, they were there. And it wasn't that, I mean, obviously I'm a little, you know, I spot them more easily now I know more of the red flags now, but even when I was new, there were always, you know, warning signs. But when you're new and you're excited and you like, you're looking for work, you're like, Oh, this will work out. Or like, Oh, I'm sure this will be fine. And then it's totally not ever fine. It's never fine. Um, so yeah, it saves you a lot of heartache to just pass on those gigs and try to find something else versus locking them in because you feel like you have to, and you're never going to get another job if you don't, you know,

Angie Colee (16:51):

Oh God, that mindset. And I, I feel it like in my gut, like a gut punch, because I think we've all been there too, where you feel like you've got to say yes to this. Cause the money's there and they want to work with you. And like no other opportunity is ever going to come again. If I turn this down, it is not true guys. They're the 8 billion people on this planet. And, and a lot of them have money that they would like to give you to pay you, to do a thing that they don't want to do or that they think you do better than them. So they want your help, like trust that if you nature abhors a vacuum. So if you open up space for it, something's going to rush in and fill that. But first you gotta be brave enough to open up the space and say, you know, I don't want to work with this guy who basically says, well, I'm not saying plagiarize, but just copy these things, buddy. That's the definition of plagiarism, just sayin'. Oh God. Yeah

April Dykman (17:45):

Know, what's so funny is that even, you know, after all of this time that I've been freelance and, um, I've worked for myself, is that the same? That same fear happened at the beginning of the Coronavirus for me. So last year I was working with a client on retainer, really big client. Um, I had gigs lined up for the next couple of months and all of that just disappeared. And so I was still luckily like I was getting royalty checks, so that was good. I wasn't like, you know, like, didn't really have my backup against a wall, but it really freaked me out because we didn't know what was going on. We didn't know how long it was gonna last. It was like, I'm losing all of these jobs. Does this mean I'm not going to be able to find work? And so then I just set out to fill my calendar back up. Well, like it turns out yes, there was plenty of work. And I filled up my calendar really well to the point where I was miserable going, why did I accept all of this work? Like what happened there? And so I had to like finish all those projects. Like it gets them off my plate and get back to some sort of normalcy. But yeah, I mean, it was like relearning that lesson just in a totally new context where, um, where we were last year.

Angie Colee (18:55):

That's a good point too, because when you're first starting out, it's kind of tempting to go back to that again, the comfort zone of being an employee of like, I work with a couple of clients and that's, that's a workload that I can manage, but it's also a bit of giving your power away, right? Because if you focus on generating more demands than you could possibly actually service, like I've got more people willing to work with me than I have time to actually work with. Then you don't have to say yes to anything, but the things that are most interesting to you or most lucrative for you, or they're fun, heaven forbid you create a workspace for you that with people that make you laugh and projects that are fun, you can totally do that by the way.

April Dykman (19:34):

Yeah. Yeah. This is a really, I think that's, that's something that I still struggle with because I now have clients that are coming to me that I really enjoy working with, but I literally do not have time to help them. Um, and so I have to say no, and it's so hard. Like if it's a client I hate, or they're asking you to do something sketchy. I mean, that's easy. I love saying no, but when it's somebody I really like working with and I just can't help them anymore because there's not room on my schedule. I feel really bad about it. But like, I don't want to say yes to you so bad, but I really can't.

Angie Colee (20:08):

I mean, that's such a great, that's a power position to be in right too, because if you do, if you really want to help them and you want to make room in your schedule and they can wait, that's the crucial thing. And they can wait to work with you. Then you get to be in the lovely enviable position of taking a deposit for them to show that they're serious about they want to work with you. And then you can start their project on X date two months in the future. Like once I finish these projects, we can start then of course, I'm going to need you to be ready with all of your materials to go on that day. Because if you're not, you forfeit your deposit, woohoo Power.

Angie Colee (20:40):

And then the other half of that power move is like, if you know that you just don't have the space or they can't, they need to go right now. They wait for you for, for a couple months, but they can't put down a deposit and wait for you. What surprised me when one of the biggest surprises to me was what a powerful move it is to refer that person to someone that you know, and I, I think because when I first started, I was very much in this scarcity mindset and that sounds like super woo. But I was, I was operating out of this assumption of there's limited work available, especially for writers. And we're all competing against each other. And a job that April takes is a job that I can't have. And April's now my enemy. And like, Ugh. And then when I got into this.

April Dykman (21:27):

Copywriting Wars.

Angie Colee (21:28):

copy Wars, it's fantastic. Coming, coming to a Fox network near you. Don't Sue me box. I'm giving you reality show ideas. You should pay me. Um, when I, the first time I got kind of overbooked and overwhelmed and I just said, Hey, does anybody, anybody looking for work? Can I connect you to this potential client? Suddenly I became the person that refers people. So like good karma. Woohoo. I didn't do it for the karma, but you know, Hey, good karma helps. Uh, I became the person that knows people so I can connect you to someone, even if I can't help you. And all of these only serve to be able to help me charge even higher prices in the future.

April Dykman (22:13):

Yeah, yeah. That most, the most recent time that I had a customer, a former client come to me, that was, I, none of the people in my network, um, were actually free. So it became like none of us are available. Um, but somebody knew someone. And so we were able to find him a writer, which was just really good. Cause it is, it was a good client, good company. So I'm happy to see him working with somebody now.

Angie Colee (22:39):

Well, and you know, this, this is a good thing to talk about too, because if you're you're freelancing for the first time and you find your schedule full, guess what? That's a sign of. It's my favorite sign. It's time to raise prices because if you're fully booked, then the next person that you quote, quote like twice as much as you normally charge, just say it and see if you can get a yes, because once you become a $10,000 project writer, you are always from henceforth a $10,000 writer. Like nobody can take that away from you. You got paid for it once you can get paid for that again. So challenge yourself, especially if you are fully booked to raise your prices, throw it out there and see what happens. Cause you're already fully booked and making the money might as well. See if you can get even more with the next project. Right?

April Dykman (23:22):

Right. Yeah. Or, you know, look at the work of people that are charging more than you. Because gosh, that was eye opening for me where I was like, wait, this person's charging. How much for that? Like, wow, that takes balls. I need to do that.

Angie Colee (23:39):

Our friend Rachel said the exact same thing on, on episode, one of the permission to kick ass podcast, uh, she said that she was working for this company and found out that this guy had charged the company like $10,000 for this series of emails. And she was like, Oh my God, what? Cause she had been charging like 300 bucks per email to that point, which is totally in line with market rates. But I mean, yeah, $10000.

April Dykman (24:03):

He was someone else's doing. And a lot of times what they're doing is not better or can even be much, much worse. Um, yeah, just learn that. It's about saying the number.

Angie Colee (24:14):

It really is. And like not freaking out or attaching to the number, uh, because look, there's a market out there for anything that you want to charge. Trust me. So why would you choose to be like a 50 cent writer when you could be a $50,000 writer? There are people out there that pay millions and millions of dollars for a car. I would never pay millions and millions of dollars for a car. I do not understand this, but there are people out there that, and it's the same parts as a Toyota, but they, they built the value to where the people on the other end with the money think that it's worth that value to pay that money. You can totally do that with your business and decide. I am a $50,000 writer for a sales page. Here's what I need to do to make that worth the people and go find the people that can, can spend $50,000 on this. Right. Don't go try and sell something. Don't go, please. Don't sell me a Bugatti. I don't want one. That's that's the first step. The error right there.

April Dykman (25:19):

Is that a car? I don't even know what that is. Who was the person? When it, I just learned what a Denali was the other day, A car gets me from point a Point B and I don't want to have to hassle with it. And I don't want it breaking down all the time. And I really don't want to know too much about it. I just that's that's it for cars for me. It's not my,

Angie Colee (25:40):

You live in Texas. It needs an air conditioner. That's

April Dykman (25:42):

How, yeah. Oh my God. Yes does need that.

Angie Colee (25:46):

No, it's a, maybe I should default to what we all know in marketing, which is the Lambo, the fancy car, um,

April Dykman (25:55):

Or the Tesla That the bros love these days. Self driving Tesla.

Angie Colee (26:00):

Yeah. See, as you can tell by the mocking derision in our voices right now, we don't find the value worth paying that money, but maybe you listening to this thinking like, yeah, Tesla, that's what I want. Hell yeah. I'm going to go get it to you. I say, hell yeah, save up your money, go get that thing. That Tesla is incredibly valued, valuable to you. You go pay for that. Cool. Um, and that's really kind of circling the point that I was trying to make in my own awkward way, because I'm amazing. Uh, which is the set, your rate and trust that there's going to be somebody out there. You have to go find them after you set your rate, but they're out there. There's somebody out there that wants to spend that kind of money on you just sometimes even for the prestige of saying, Oh yeah, I spent $50,000 on my launch copy

April Dykman (26:44):

And it's always been really big to me to be sure I'm worth that. Like, that's always been important to me. The fact that I'm continually improving and working with my own copy coach, who's like one of the best in the world. Um, because I, I never felt good about like, I go to mastermind sometimes, like none that I'm involved in anymore obviously. And they'd just be like, Oh, just raise your rates. And I'm like, but one, you don't know what my rates are. Two. You've never seen anything that I've written or done. So why are you just like telling me, Oh, just do it. Like, shouldn't like, shouldn't my rates, you know, be commensurate with the results that I'm getting. Um, so yeah, it's important. But I think, I think far too often, it's the opposite problem where you have somebody that's really good at what they do and gives their client a really good experience. And they are just way undercharging comparing what other people are charging for far less. So, yeah.

Angie Colee (27:35):

So this is two lady copywriters, two bad-ass freelance business owners here telling you to talk about money, save money, talk about money, charge rates that feel uncomfortably high, because you might be surprised they might actually be on the low end of the spectrum, but they seem high to you, uh, get friends in the industry. You're trying to break into, let them tell you how much they charge. And don't, I mean, I say that with a caveat because there's a trap there too. Like if you're finding out what everybody else charges so that you can position yourself somewhere in the middle, where that feels comfortable, maybe don't do that. Maybe figure out what works for you and the lifestyle that you want to build and set your rates accordingly. But you know, that's, that's getting a little bit into the more complicated side of your finances, but I just, you know, money is such a sensitive topic sometimes.

Angie Colee (28:30):

And then we have this kind of stigma attached to talking about it, to throwing your rate out there. And I kind of laughed the first time, our mutual mentor, Kevin Rogers mentioned saying a price in a mirror just to get comfortable saying it, but it's a little woo, but I love it. It totally works because once I've said it out loud in the mirror, looking at myself in the eyes, that will be $5,000, please. Then I can't be on the phone going. That will be, um, uh, I think, you know, that w ballpark for that is probably, I think I usually charged maybe around 3000 and then I've worked myself up and I've already talked myself down where if I, if I practice just that little step of preparing in advance and getting, getting the awkwardness out of my voice without that will be $5,000. The fee for that is $10,000, $10,000. Say that to yourself before you say it to the client, you'll be a lot more comfortable.

April Dykman (29:23):

Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Like I, and I don't know about you, but I was raised in a household where like, we never really talk about money. I didn't grow up learning about, you know, investing or really like, I mean, I, I grew up with the idea that like, okay, saving is good. I wouldn't necessarily say I had the best examples of that. And then my parents had totally separate finances too. So they didn't really communicate with each other about money. So it was kind of just this, like, I just never really talked about it. And I remember like when other people would like, even as I was, you know, in my twenties and somebody would talk about like how much they were making a year. And it was almost shocking to me that somebody would just tell other people what they're making in a year.

April Dykman (30:06):

I still don't really know how I feel about it. It's so odd. Um, but yeah, that's, that's been a long journey to being okay with saying big numbers and talking about money and being okay with saying, this is how much I want to make. And no, I'm not going to do it for less than that. And, you know, um, that's, that's, it has been a lot of mindset stuff. So it is like kind of woo woo to overcome it. But then again, it's all like mind trash in the first place. So how else are you going to get rid of that?

Angie Colee (30:36):

The head trash, like shining a light on all that shadowy shit that's bugging you has a way of resolving the problems. Like don't be afraid to bring something out into the light and look at it because sometimes it's not nearly as scary as it was when it was just bouncing around between your ears and growing into something even more scary than it was cause like I, for years, same situation. And like I grew up not really understanding much about finances. They don't really teach this in school. Parents don't really talk about this. I think retail therapy is really fucking cool. Hey, that's a way to get in trouble with your credit cards. Um, you know, and I signed up for student loans, which ballooned after that, and just really didn't know how to manage my money or even think about money until I got into like my late twenties. And by then, it's trying to undo years of damage,

April Dykman (31:26):

And now you're digging out it's like, you're supposed to be saving for retirement, but Oh wait, I haven't, you know, made some good choices up until now. So

Angie Colee (31:35):

Digging out from under a mountain of debt, that's not. And so now I try to be that advocate and say, look, these are the choices that I made when I was younger. And here's what I learned as a result. So that people feel a little bit less of a stigma going through that. Like I'm somebody that started a business with massive amounts of student loans, because I have three degrees. One of like, I went to grad school, woohoo that I'm not using that degree in my business.

April Dykman (32:01):

what is your master's in?

Angie Colee (32:01):

My master's is in entertainment, industry management, I guess maybe. Okay. I lied a little bit. I am using that because it is a hybrid creative business degree. And I teach people how to build creative businesses, but it was specifically meant for La La Land, like being out in Hollywood, making movies and TV. And it was meant to bridge the gap between the people that create stuff and the people that run the business of it, which like the common jokey thing in, in the agent side of the business, the money-making side was it's called show business, not show art to which I said you don't have a business without the art.

Angie Colee (32:32):

So blow me. You can't create it yourself. So take, um, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard when you're a creator to understand the value of that, especially when you've got the moneymakers kind of putting downward pressure on you. Like, no, I'm not going to pay that much. All right. Well, cool. I'm going to take this thing that you really wanted to someone else and see what they're willing to pay. So April, this has been a fascinating and meandering conversation and I love every minute about it. Tell us where to find you and learn more about you on the web.

April Dykman (33:45):

Yeah. You can find me at copy. sprout.com. Um, C O P Y S P R O U T. Um, and yeah, you can see what I'm up to. I blogged there. Um, you can get on my email list where I write hilariously funny emails There. Right. Um, yeah. So you can find me there. I get on the email with occasionally I do some videos. I try to have fun with it. And um, I talk a lot about, um, copywriting and marketing and sales psychology.

Angie Colee (34:19):

Yeah. And even if you're in a different line of business from, from copywriting learning a little bit about how to write to the people that you sell to will always help. So I highly recommend being on April's list. Um,

April Dykman (34:32):

Yeah. And there's, um, there's actually a freebie there right now for my first seven days formula, which if you are any kind of business owner freelancer, um, whether you have a team, it shows you how to write a welcome sequence to your prospects and new subscribers in about a day, um, I have a checklist there that you can get to learn more about how to do that.

Angie Colee (34:55):

Yes. And if you're still stuck in your day job, and you're planning on getting out and starting your creative business, remember April's trick to write down everything you hate about this job, and don't hang it up at the job, hang it up at home. But look at it every day.

April Dykman (35:09):

That might tick Some people off,

Angie Colee (35:11):

they might understand that you are unhappy and getting ready to go. If you hang it up somewhere where they can read it at work. Um, thank you so much for being on the show April. We are gonna have to do this again and have a fantastic day.

April Dykman (35:23):

All right. I'll talk to you soon

Speaker 4 (35:28):

So that is it another awesome episode of permission to kick ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show, if you want to know more about me, Angie and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permission to kick ass.com. That is all one word together, permission to kick ass.com, make sure to sign up for my email list so that, you know, whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Mondays ass, I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass