Feeling like a fraud is pretty common for most entrepreneurs. Take that imposter syndrome and multiply it by cultural expectations in a post-communist country and you get a taste of my guest, Csaba Borzasi’s experience. How did Csaba break through generational AND personal self-limiting beliefs to become a successful freelancer? Listen to this episode to find out!
Don’t let the fluffy marketing fool you - the early days of entrepreneurship can be dark. Csaba followed his gut through corporate hell and nightmare clients to find success. A lot of real talk in this one. But don’t be scared, dear listener. There’s beauty in the journey (we share ‘cause we love ya).
Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:
This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!
Hi, I'm Csaba, a former psychology researcher turned Emotional Response Marketer.
For years, I struggled to get my business off the ground and create profitable marketing campaigns that actually make money, but was getting nowhere and I was at the end of my rope.
Then I decided to go all-in and master the timeless fundamentals of the “ultimate persuasive skill”, direct response copywriting...
Going as far as breaking down 100 proven sales letters in 100 days to uncover the master secrets of the most elite copywriters of all time.
(while documenting my process through daily YouTube videos).
Today, I help ambitious online businesses convert more casual leads into high-AOV customers and plug the holes in their “leaky” funnels.
Resources and links mentioned:
Come kick ass with me:
Download this episode
Angie Colee (00:02):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. Today I am so excited to introduce to you a man that I had the pleasure first of coaching back, uh, when he was learning to be a copywriter. Back way back when I knew Csaba. Uh, and since then, he's gone on to be featured in multiple publications with all the work that he's doing. So welcome to the show, everyone. Csaba Borzasi.
Csaba Borzasi (00:42):
Hi, Angie, such a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me to this podcast. It's amazing.
Angie Colee (00:48):
I'm so happy to have you here. And I've seen you come so far since you first started out. Like, was I your first contact when you were talking about joining that coaching program?
Csaba Borzasi (00:59):
Actually, yes. So I joined Copy Chief, which is a community for copywriters, like three months before joining that coaching program. And, you know, I saw it, I knew about it. I considered joining it a few times before, but I was always on the fence. And then, uh, I reached out to you, I think, uh, because I saw you on a, on a webinar, you were very helpful. I reached out to you and, uh, you just shot a 20 minute video for me, just like that, answering all my objections, preemptively even. And I was like, wow, okay. So if I have coaches like this in the program, then that's the place to be.
Angie Colee (01:35):
Yeah, that sounds like me rambling for 20 minutes. Uh, so we were talking a little bit before this call about imposter syndrome, which I think is almost a recurring theme on this podcast, but I can never get enough talking about it. I know when I was growing up with my polite Southern family, uh, I often heard "You're too loud. You swear too much. Stop doing all those things. Oh my God. Why did you get that tattoo?" And it felt like no matter what I did, if I was being true to myself, I was wrong. But if I was following someone else's advice, it didn't feel right. So tell me a little bit about your experience. Was it similar to that?
Csaba Borzasi (02:15):
Yeah, I can totally relate to that. Especially my mother always taught me these things. Be careful what others say. Like always strive to be polite. Uh, preemptively salute people on the street. I grew up and actually, you know, I'm from Romania. I live in Hungary, but I'm an ethnic Hungarian who was born in Transylvania, which is a part of Romania now. But I promise I'm not a vampire.
Angie Colee (02:37):
How did I not know you were from Transylvania? That's the coolest thing ever.
Csaba Borzasi (02:41):
It's a complicated, it's, there's a complicated historical thing between Romanians and Hungarians. But anyway, as an ethnic Hungarian, I was a minority and, uh, Romania and Hungary, you know, they're both in Eastern Europe, so they're both post post communist countries as well. So in addition to, um, especially my mother, but my father as well, being very, uh, mindful of others, especially in social situations, there was the extra pressure of my parents growing up in basically a dictatorship. When, where, if you expressed individuality, if you expressed strong emotions, if you even dare to like talk about, um, polarizing subjects in public or even at home, um, you were severely penalized by it. And this got ingrained into the collective unconscious of that, um, society. It still is even to this day. And, uh, these types of traumas, they last a long time. They last decades. And, uh, it's very visible even to this day.
Csaba Borzasi (03:42):
Uh, not just with me, with my friends and other people as well. Uh, whenever people in my, from my original culture, they try to do something daring, like become a direct response copywriter as a freelancer on the US market. For example, this is like, like, so are you scamming people for money? Or like, are you doing something on the internet? What's up with that? So, yeah, I can definitely relate to imposter syndrome because of that. Uh, and I had a lot of baggage, uh, before joining, uh, before doing this actually, but, uh, uh, but I, I kind of learned to kind of cope with it and, and, and, and discover that it's with you, it's gonna stay with you forever. It doesn't go away. I'm in, in a famous copywriters coaching program called David Deutsch. And even he, um, struggles with imposter syndrome. And he's this super big shot guy in the world of copywriting.
Angie Colee (04:37):
No, I've said that a bunch of times, and you have so many great things that I kind of want to unpack there. So, um, first of all, like I hearing that it's generational trauma that led to this idea of like, you've got, Nope, you've got to keep your real self set. Like, I think that was a great thing for me to hear. I think that's a great thing for the audience to hear too, particularly us Americans that kind of take for granted this idea of like, I can say and do whatever I want and you don't have to like it. Um, wow. Like to, to take that freedom for granted and just to kind of like throw it in people's face that I can say whatever I want. I don't take that lightly. And I think that that's kind of important to note. And another great point that you made was about this idea that they thought you were scamming people because you're going to work online.
Angie Colee (05:25):
You're not going to work at a traditional job. You're not taking on a more traditional role. I had a similar experience with a former partner of mine that right before I took coaching with Kevin, that same program that you joined, uh, he told me "you can't do that because you are being taken in by internet scam artists. Like they're just going to sell you a program on how to make money online. They're going to take your cash. And then you're going to be broke and complaining to me." And I can't, I still can't rationally describe it to this day, but like, I rebelled against everything he said. I was, this is not an internet scammer. Everything about me tells me everything about him, tells me that this is someone that I can trust. That cares about me and my development. So I took out a secret credit card and I invested in the program without telling my partner at the time, uh, a shocker. That's not the foundation for a strong relationship. And ultimately we, uh, broke up, but that, I think I'm better for that because the, the investment that I made in my future paid off in spades, it led to me becoming eventually a coach for that very same program meeting, wonderful people like you. I honestly don't even know if this podcast would exist if I hadn't been through a program like that. Um, all courtesy of internet hucksters taking us for a ride, right?
Csaba Borzasi (06:41):
Yeah. Yeah. I think the funny thing is that you actually shared this story with me in that 20 minutes video that you did when I reached out regarding that coaching. And I said, "Wow, Angie, I mean, this person is so vulnerable, willing to be so vulnerable. How can she be like, um, a hustler or a huckster or something like", it would have to be really, really, really, uh, like psychopathic levels of, of scam artists, but it just doesn't seem like that. So
Angie Colee (07:09):
That brings me to an interesting point too, because, you know, we're both direct we're sales oriented writers, right? Copywriters. Um, and that's just broader context for those of you that are listening that are new to hearing me rant about copywriting. But I think one of the things that small business owners really struggle with the idea of selling because they have that, you know, slick, high pressure used car salesman, the internet huckster idea in their mind, and they can't transform themselves into that. So they think, okay, I can't sell. And okay, I get that. You don't want to be that inauthentic high pressure person, but if you can't sell, you don't have a business. So you've got to find a way to sell and believe that you are delivering true value. And that's what I loved about the approach. When I first bought into that coaching program, which was, we had a discussion.
Angie Colee (07:59):
I'm so glad you brought up the story too. I was telling Kevin, who is the leader of this program, "I really want it, this feels like the right time. It feels like my moment. I really want to do this. I'm struggling with the payment," which was four figures and it was not insignificant. Um, and he told me, "Look, Angie, I get it. You've got a partner, you've got a mortgage, you've got bills to pay. And I don't want to put any of that in danger. This program will be here when you are ready for it. Don't chance missing a mortgage payment. Don't take food out of your mouth. Don't spend money on something. I will be here when you're ready for it." And that was kind of like the, "he gives a damn about me moment" that I was like, "Nope, I'm buying this. I'm totally in."
Csaba Borzasi (08:46):
Yeah, I can totally relate to that. Um, especially because both of my parents are engineers, basically. So, uh, and my father is the type of person who basically all throughout his life he did a bunch of work for everybody else, you know? And he was the, the, the ant type of, of, of, of person who does the work, who creates the value. And then sure he gets rewarded some in some way, shape or form, but like a bunch of others profit off of him, but he did, he had zero entrepreneurial, uh, skills, or even like desire to actually do it the same for my mother. So I actually came from a super anti entrepreneurial background and an anti selling background. So for my parents, or even the culture that I came from, like selling, you know, there's this, uh, there's, um, side guys that, uh, whoever gets rich, uh, has to be a scam artist because that's the only way through to get rich.
Csaba Borzasi (09:40):
Like, because that's what you learned from a post-communist country. It's that like, uh, people like in the government or something steal a bunch with the pre-tax that we're giving away for people. Uh, but it's just a big scam. Uh, and this is what they, they, they got ingrained into their minds. So I had to learn and basically deconstruct these false myths, uh, and then reconstruct a new reality for myself. And apparently that's also like the basis for all push persuasion. So that's how like sales pages work. Right. But, uh, but, uh, I guess my point with this is that, you know, I really had to learn all this stuff from books, courses, blogs, relentlessly learning about that stuff. Some people, you know, are born sales man. Uh, I was definitely not one. I had to learn it. And even to this day, sometimes I just, I just don't feel it. I just, especially like in, in, in my, my day-to-day life, when I interact with people, uh, I don't really use these instinctively. I have to, when I am in my copywriting mode, I use them because I know that now I have to use these, but I have a different persona in most cases, because then it's like sometimes a big difference. And it, it creates this weird little dichotomy in my mind. It's weird, but
Angie Colee (10:56):
No, I think that's amazing. And I loved one thing that you said that I want to unpack a little bit, and that was about, you know, having to learn and having to teach yourself, having to go down this path. That was so counterintuitive to even like the main culture that everybody grew up. It's not, it's not even that, like, you're in the small pocket of entrepreneurship, but literally no one else around you can kind of see this vision. And I think that's important to highlight because that happens to, I think, a lot of entrepreneurs as they're growing and stretching out of their comfort zones, right? Figuring out how to start this business, what they could even offer. Uh, so many people around them, you know, United States, Hungary, I feel like there's a lot of overlap here too, that like, this is the way that things work. This is the path that you follow. This is the way that you behave in order to be seen as a professional. Uh, and if you step out of this, we're going to brand you as that huckster, that scam artists like you're taking advantage of people. Uh, what was it like to just, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit here. What was it like to follow your gut against the tide like that? And just, you know, know something about this feels really right. I need to follow this.
Csaba Borzasi (12:12):
Yeah. Great question. Well, um, I was put in into a situation where I had to make it work. So, uh, when I moved to Hungary from Romania, after completing my studies, I started working for IBM as a sales support specialist. So basically a boring corporate back office job. And I kind of was okay with it, but it was boring for me. And it really bugged me that, uh, even if I was, let's say smarter than others tried to create systems or something, there was no less upside. They just gave me more work. I said, okay, that doesn't sound too good. So then I got, uh, persuaded into joining a comp, like a wealth management company, my, a friend of a friend, and this was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread, but it turned out to be this super scammy company in which I had to cold call 50 people per day, under a false name in English, in Hungary as a false persona to get them to basically invest hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, in like these were super high net worth individuals like CEOs and companies and stuff like that.
Csaba Borzasi (13:15):
Uh, and basically I was doing lead generation for my bosses and only getting a shared with profits. So this was the type of job. Fortunately, hopefully the only one in my life in which, uh, I started working there. And after a week I started having constant diarrhea when I, when I went into work and I, and I, after a week I started plotting my escape and I needed six months to actually manufacture like a plan because I didn't have savings at the time, nothing. And, uh, with, as with most of these jobs, you know, uh, it was a very, very long sales cycle in which I generate a lead. And then my bosses closed them. And then I got the money. It took four months or something. And then at the end, you know, they preemptively fired me in order to not pay my commissions, a lot of my commissions.
Csaba Borzasi (14:04):
But when I, when I managed to like build up a few months worth of savings, uh, then I finally basically was laid off, but I wanted to quit anyway. And then I started working some of my friends here in Budapest, they were working as freelance copywriters already. Uh, I was involved in like group of friends who are all pick up artists, but then they all transitioned it to entrepreneurs. There's an interesting, um, interesting little connection here. And, uh, I basically said, okay, so I'm going to register on Upwork. I'm just gonna like, learn anything I can about this for two weeks. I give myself two weeks and then I got to make it work in the first month. So in a, in a way that I have basically 1.5 months of, of savings, that's it? And, uh, yeah, one of my first clients actually was a sex shop. So I really learned the concept of creating desire-building bullets, when we're writing fascinations for like penis extenders and stuff like that.
Angie Colee (15:03):
That's so great, we have so much more overlap than you might even realize. Uh, I was just writing down notes while you were talking, because at the same thing with my old, uh, day job, when it got to the point that I was so stressed out that, and there was like a disconnect between my body and my brain. I don't know if that happened to you too, but like, my brain is rationalizing. I need the money. I need to go into work. And my body is like violently, like I can't sleep. I'm having knots in my shoulders. My stomach is constantly upset. Like my body is screaming at me, stop going to this job. It's stressing you out. But my brain was like, we need money. And I did the same thing. It took me six months between when I first announced my intention to my, to my peers, that I'm going to leave this job, took me six months to get out the door.
Angie Colee (15:48):
Same thing because I didn't have savings. And I was worried. So I'm suddenly like working the day job, trying to keep things floating. They're taking on side gigs, trying to build up my little pot of money only to see you had, you had a month and a half to make it. I had about four months worth of savings. And I did really well. My first month out, I managed to build five figures in like 14 days. It was insane. Um, and then I stopped prospecting. And then when I finally started looking for clients again, after I burned myself out that first month working around the clock, uh, I started running out of money really fast because my mortgage payments were super expensive in the San Francisco area. Um, and then I wound up taking a temporary gig at my old job. The one that had caused me so much stress, I got laid off.
Angie Colee (16:36):
I got fucking fired from a job i didn't even have. A job I didn't even want. A job that I had left four months after I had walked out the door. It was insane, but it's really kind of funny how you get into that cycle of like the, the money above everything, even like your health, your wellbeing, um, it can really stress you out. And so that's why I'm a big proponent. You've heard me rant about this in our coaching programs too. If you don't have an F-you fund, listening to the podcast, I'm going to rant about this until somebody forcibly shuts me up, but you need to save money. Even if it's a dollar at a time, start saving now and make that a habit. And then that way, if you are having violent diarrhea on your job and you know, you need to walk away, you have the freedom to walk away and, and, you know, kind of get your head on straight and try again.
Csaba Borzasi (17:28):
Yeah. Yeah. I think at this point I definitely learned this lesson. Obviously, along the way of me becoming a freelance copywriter, I had a bunch of nightmare clients from hell it's what I called them. Uh, and I, a few times, you know, I got scammed and I got exploited and I had a few other clients as well, which were, uh, not too pleasant to work with, let's say, but at this point, you know, I would rather just not take the money. I have the F-you fund. I have some savings. I would rather not work for a year or something than to, than to work for these because I'm just creating content more. I mean, I I'm focused on the long-term strategy and it just, I think it was John Carlton, another famous copywriter who is like the mentor of our mentor, Kevin Rogers, who said that, you know, you gotta be very careful of breakdown and with like submitting to these nightmare clients, because it can really mess you up. And it, it does more damage than the, than the money that you take for it, because it might last, it might fuck, can I use the F-word?
Angie Colee (18:29):
You can say whatever the hell you want to on this podcast, my podcast.
Csaba Borzasi (18:33):
Oh hell yeah. So, uh, I'm just gonna let it go. My, you know, the things that I've been conditioned to act politely in the society, but it fucks you up like crazy and you know, it might fuck up your confidence. It might give you even more imposter syndrome. It might validate some of your pre-existing false beliefs that you might have regarding yourself. So, and I had this a few times, uh, I said, you know, now, you know, I'm more experienced. I'm just going to take this client. Even though there are a few red flags, it's just going to be a quick work. You know, they just need something simple from me. Nah uh.
Angie Colee (19:13):
Csaba Borzasi (19:13):
Yeah. It's like, "Hey, it should only take you like two days."
Angie Colee (19:17):
Don't tell me how to do my job, bro.
Csaba Borzasi (19:19):
Angie Colee (19:20):
I'll tell you how much time it takes. Thank you very much.
Csaba Borzasi (19:23):
Oh, it's unbelieveable with them nowadays.
Angie Colee (19:26):
I'm so glad you brought that up too, because, okay guys, if you're new to business or maybe if you're in that intro phase, you've started your business and you're dealing with the nightmare clients. It's hard to see a light at the end of this particular tunnel, but listen to me, listen to Csaba. If you stand your ground and you refuse to be treated a certain way, you'd be amazed how quickly those shitty clients fall off your radar and newer, better, more interesting projects come along with people that actually respect your expertise and your talent. And then like we said, if you have that money saved up to float you in between finding those clients, then you don't have to take on shitty gigs. And like the thing that you said that, you know, we're going to credit Carlton for that, because that's something that I learned early on too, is like, you're not just spending your time with this client.
Angie Colee (20:16):
Like you said, you're spending mental energy, there's emotion that goes into that. Because if you're a creator, a little piece of you goes into all the work. So there's like the rejection of them telling you that your work is not good enough. I had that happen to me once with a nightmare client where the guy said, "I'm not paying you the second half of the", like, he paid me a deposit. "I'm not paying you the second half of your fee because this copy wasn't good enough. It was disappointing. It sucked." That copy sucked so much he had it published on his website within 24 hours of refusing to pay me, wow, did that copy suck if he decided to use it. And so like the reason I'm going into this kind of circular rant here is if you're in this stage, it happens to all of us. Trust me. When I say that there is a way out, I've been burned. Csaba has been burned every freelancer under the sun, unless they have remarkable luck. Like the kind of, they need to go get lotto tickets right now. Look, we've all been burned. We've all survived and come out the other side and built better businesses for it. It's part of the process to fall on your face, to take bad clients, to ignore red flags in favor of the money. It's all part of the process.
Csaba Borzasi (21:24):
Absolutely. That's very, very important to communicate this to your audience because like some people believe that, you know, there are these gurus, these, these achieved freelancers or entrepreneurs who just like made it and it was a miracle, but it doesn't work like that. And that's why I'm so glad that you started this podcast, Angie, this Permission to Kick Ass, because somebody has to communicate this stuff because most sales materials or marketing materials out there, they only communicate like the upside and how, you know, I break down a lot of financial promotions nowadays, uh, analyze them. And they're so like, okay, in some sense, they are very persuasive. But on the other sense, they're super biased as well because they say "yes, if you invested $100, uh, 20 years ago in Amazon, you could have made this much money." And it's like, sure, I get it. But there are so many other predictions that they made, which totally fell on their face and the same thing with freelancing as well.
Angie Colee (22:21):
Yeah. I love that. Uh, my favorites, my favorite illustration and all of these like lifestyle sales pages to pick apart is the work on your laptop from the beach. Like, first of all, if I'm at the beach, I don't want to be working. Screw that. Second of all, sand in my laptop, what the hell? Like, you know, this is not a good idea. Third of all, sand and other places that are unmentionable will not talk about that. How about no, I'd like to be sitting in a chair on the beach with a cocktail, listening to the waves with no laptop, anywhere in sight ever at all. Because beach time is relaxation. Time, not work time.
Csaba Borzasi (22:59):
Yeah. If you want to be an entrepreneur, first of all, don't uh, hope for like encouragement from people because it's not like it's not a place where you're going to get it like organically. Um,
Angie Colee (23:11):
Yeah, not unless you're surrounded by other entrepreneurs because other entrepreneurs who have had some success will encourage you. But yeah, the majority of people that are like employees or failed entrepreneurs will be like, "no, no you can't have that dream. You're, you're fooling yourself." And like, screw those people with all the love that you have. If, if you love them and their loved ones, love them from a distance. Don't talk to them about your griefs.
Csaba Borzasi (23:33):
That's true. We're still, you've got to have thick skin. And the other thing is that, uh, if you want to be an entrepreneur or like a freelancer who does well, uh, get used to like spend like, uh, spending eight hours a day or even more many cases in front of your monitor, in a dark room in your dungeon, because that's how the entrepreneurial life, the hustle lifestyle, it really is.
Angie Colee (23:55):
I know I'm laughing at this because, okay, so as we're recording this, I'm in Nashville, Tennessee, this is the God I'm starting to lose track already. This is like the third or fourth stop on my little domestic digital nomad trip. Um, and everybody is bugging me for more pictures of adventures. And I'm like, I'm, I'm at the point where I think I'm sarcastically going to take a bunch of photos of like, here's a selfie of me at my laptop. Here's a selfie of me writing notes in my notepad and just like, look, these are all the adventures that I'm having because I'm still working while I'm on the road. But the beauty of the way that I've structured this as if, you know, if I want to work from like seven to noon and then take the afternoon off. Great. And then maybe I come back and do an hour or two of work at night because this is the way that I've built my schedule to not have to be at a computer at a certain time, other than things that I really want to do, like record a podcast.
Csaba Borzasi (24:49):
Absolutely. And also as you, as you get like a further down the journey, uh, for me, at least it became kind of like a role-playing game. So, uh, at the moment, for example, I'm doing this proven sales that are breakdown challenge for a hundred days. I'm on day 76 at the moment. A lot of like I'm doing it daily, daily, YouTube uploads, everything. It's like a three hour process every single day, uh, in many cases. And I'm actually, um, sacrificing short-term client work for this, uh, for like, for the long-term. But for me, one of the great motivating things is that one of the main reasons I'm doing this is because I want to get really good at copy. And I love to learn even before I did all this, I always was the guy who was like, let's go out to the party. Ah, sure.
Csaba Borzasi (25:35):
You know, but I went there after two hours, ah, this is boring. I would rather go read something or like talk to someone one-on-one or something like that. So, um, I guess, uh, the thing I want to communicate with this is that you've got to find something else, some internal motivation that keeps moving you forward because it's, it's a rough road. Uh, but it has its ups and downs. Definitely. But it has a lot of beauty. And for me personally, it's autonomy and it's like, I can, I get paid to, to, to learn basically which is awesome.
Angie Colee (26:06):
Think that's great. And I wanted to, I wanted to call attention to a distinction that I want to make too, because I think a lot of entrepreneurs get caught in learning trap. You are learning by doing, and that is the important next level step. Like you're you are taking your learnings, you are spending three hours a day making that into a video, putting it up somewhere, risking judgements, risking feedback. Right. Um, and the great thing about what we do as writers is that you're going to get some shitty feedback. I mean, internet trolls are everywhere in every industry. So like surprise. If you're going to be in business, you're going to have haters. It's a sign that you're doing better than you think.
Csaba Borzasi (26:42):
So I haven't gotten any shitty feedback seriously. So seriously. I don't know how or why, but maybe people are very like, they're like, "oh, poor guy. Let's not, let's not hurt him." But, uh,
Angie Colee (26:55):
I haven't gotten shitty feedback, but I have gotten porn spam on my YouTube videos.
Csaba Borzasi (26:59):
Oh yeah. That I get all the time, but those are bots
Angie Colee (27:02):
Porn spam bots love me, haters apparently don't. Um, maybe it's because I have a reputation for shutting down haters fairly quickly. Um, that's one of my favorite pastimes as an aside. So if you're a hater and you're listening to this podcast, I am very skilled at making you look like a moron in a very polite, very above reproach way. So bring it on, haters says me. Uh, you will just prove to me that I am going in the right direction, but that, you know, not getting stuck in that. I just want to learn. I just want to learn all I can and then I'll take action trap. Like the thing that I think is interesting, we were talking a little bit about this before we started recording is that day 76. You said that you're doing this with no, you know, expectation of I'm going to sell this later. Just like, I want to do this purely to get better. And you said that you've been featured by certain places. Right? Tell me a little bit more about that.
Csaba Borzasi (27:57):
Yeah. So, um, you know, this all comes back to the original coaching program that we, that we started talking about. It's called Real Free Life. And it's very relevant because it tries to give you a, like, let's say a freer life. Uh, but uh, you know, inside there, we have a concept that you should create authority content, you know? And, uh, if you, if you don't really have the audience to like put this out to just document your process of you learning something. And originally I wanted to specialize on YouTube ads, but I still had, like, I had a great little brand image for it and everything, but I was missing an important part, which was that I didn't really have the connections necessarily, or the clients necessarily to like test a bunch of those things. Because for these to test these, you need to spend a lot of money on like ads.
Csaba Borzasi (28:46):
And I still felt like a fraud, but I said to myself, you know, I enjoy copy the most. Uh, I, you know, I have a bachelor in psychology. My girlfriend, like soon to be wife is a therapist as well.
Angie Colee (28:58):
Csaba Borzasi (28:58):
Thank you so much. Uh, we're actually getting married in three weeks. We bought a house together. Thank you so much. Yeah. It's things are moving, we're moving fast. So, um, the thing is I wanted to, uh, learn these things and, and I, I said, what can I do to also create authority content while I'm significantly improving my skills? Because I had the face for years when I was consuming content like a madman. And I'm like, if you would see my notes, I have thousands of pages of notes from various books and courses and everything. I went to my friends. I, I tried to borrow stuff from them as well, when I didn't have the money.
Csaba Borzasi (29:37):
And, and it's like, I learned so much, but the problem is that I couldn't really test it. And the first one and a half years, or two years, when I was working with clients, they were shitty clients and they didn't implement my copy, which is just as bad. That's like them not paying you because you don't gain the confidence to accompany your, your learning, your new knowledge. But now I'm implementing. And there was, uh, another thing from our, our, our mentor, Kevin Rogers that said that, you know, you become an expert by. You don't just become an expert suddenly, but eventually as you're creating content, people start just looking at you like an expert because you are there day by day, you are showing up and half of the work or even more in this business is just showing up. And I can't tell you how many comments I've gotten from people because they were, they were inspired by my challenge that I'm doing this every day. And they also started their own daily challenges. And, uh, I even got gotten comments from like, uh, some of the A list copywriters that I featured in these videos. They were like, "Hey, you know, I watched your video" and we're talking about 40, 50 minutes videos in sometimes, and "I watched your video. It's so it's, it's awesome. Basically what you're doing. And like, please let me know if I can help you with anything or something like that."
Angie Colee (30:50):
Oh, that's amazing. And especially since you could have used that as a potential, like fear block or anxiety, like I can't criticize these people. I can't provide feedback or break down what they're saying, because they might come on and be the haters and be like, no, you totally misunderstood everything I was going for. You suck like, that fear is real, but.
Csaba Borzasi (31:09):
I did have it.
Angie Colee (31:11):
Csaba Borzasi (31:11):
Yes, absolutely. Like, uh, for example, I broke down one of, uh, uh, Kim Krause Schwalm's promotions. You featured her on the podcast not long ago. And I, you know, I was thinking of the saying and sending it to her, mentioning that, Hey, I broke it down. And I, I definitely had emotions before I sent the email. I said, what if, you know, it's actually like, I messed this up. And it's like, I, I totally like, like, like messed this whole analysis up. And it's like, I'm talking about two basic things or something, but I sent it to her. And within the day she replied and she was like, "wow, you know, like you actually got, most of the things in it right. And then you actually point out things that I even didn't consider when I wrote the promotion." So that's, that's that, and that serves obviously as validation that again, banishes imposter syndrome, but even if this didn't happen, I made a conscious decision when starting this, that this is, I'm doing this for myself.
Csaba Borzasi (32:06):
And eventually people will find it. Uh, but because, you know, good content attracts people, but I don't really have expectations for this. I haven't gotten any like, uh, clients from this yet. Or like, you know, many people approach me since then. But like, I haven't gotten like a done deal because of this yet or something, but it's not the reason why I'm doing it. It's that, you know, I, I noticed that there's, there's a lot of younger, wannabe copywriters as well. And I'm learning with this. They are going to learn from this and putting everything on YouTube for free. I think it's, it's definitely democratizing this type of knowledge. And then eventually sure. I will create a lead magnet or like a freebie, like a, a conclusion or like various types of products around this. I don't know yet. Exactly. But for now I just want to finish it.
Angie Colee (32:56):
Well, and I think that's the important thing. Like I just got done with some like some life coaching actually. Um, and like, I love Kim because she's so sassy to the point where if you don't know her and she's very good about drawing boundaries. In fact, that's exactly what our podcast was about. Like setting boundaries, having uncomfortable conversations. Like if you don't know her, then yeah, it would definitely be intimidating to be like, "Hey, I broke down one of your sales letters" and then have her come back to you and be like, "here's what you got right. Here's what I didn't even think about. Here's where you could have done better." Um, but the things that I think are really important in what you're telling me about your story is one, being an expert is not being the guru on top of mountain. It's being the com.
Angie Colee (33:38):
I can't even remember because I've heard this so often, but it's being 10% ahead of the people that you're trying to help. And I like to, I like to talk about it in terms of like Guru Mountain, because like who's in a better place to help you as you're on this trail, right? You're trying to climb a mountain, the person standing at the top that can't even freaking see you because you're so far down or the person that's a few steps ahead of you that says, "Hey, there's like a little gorge there. You might trip and fall into grab my hand. I'm going to help you across." You're going to reach out for the hand that's closest to you. Because they can actually help you where you're at right now. And you might not be ready for the guru at the top. You might not see the guru at the top.
Angie Colee (34:17):
Eventually you might get there, or you might find a nice, comfy, little cave to set up shop. And like not everybody needs to get to the top of the mountain. The people at the top of the mountain have more than enough business to go around for everybody else on the mountain. We're just going to go all in on this mountain analogy. Um, and people will pick difference or they'll leave the mountain entirely and go find another mountain when they discovered this one is too hard. Maybe they need a smaller mountain, you know? So like you can't assume that everybody has to aim for the top. Like I gave up searching for the number one position a long time ago, because one I'm lazy. I worked in Silicon valley. I did the hustle and grind until you drop. I have burned out. It is not fun.
Angie Colee (35:04):
So, no, I don't want to kill myself to be number one. Cause as soon as I make number one somebody is going to come along and try and knock me off my pedestal. So they can be number one. So I am very comfortable being in like the top five or 10% cause that's doing pretty damn well. Um, and then the other thing that I think is really great here that could short circuit, a lot of people that are feeling a fear blockage from putting themselves out there. And like that authority content that we talked about is super important. Especially in the beginning when no one is saying a damn thing and it feels like, why am I even bothering? No one cares, no, one's reading this. But think about how often you get an email or you see a video and you think, oh man, that was great.
Angie Colee (35:48):
And then you go on about your day and you don't bother to reach out to the content creator and say, Hey man, I needed that today. So that's happening around you all the time when you're putting content out there that somebody is seeing this, they're reading it. They're going, oh man, that's great. And then they're going off and living their own life. And it has nothing to do with you. They still think you're great. And they're still following you, um, publishing without expectation of people writing in and saying, this is great. This is useful. Please continue doing it so that you can learn just by the process of doing and putting yourself out there and risking somebody coming back and saying, actually, maybe if you think about it this way, um, oh man, I think you're doing everything right. That was basically along a big, long rant to say that.
Csaba Borzasi (36:34):
I like Angie rants. Everybody loves Angie rants. But yeah, I appreciate it. I think that in my case, this, I had to like learn how to do this, that you said as a coping mechanism, because in my case, it really, everybody was saying that, "Hey, you should get a real job". And you know, in most cases they say that at least your mom is going to read your emails. Right. But in my case, my parents don't speak English. So even them couldn't like, they still cannot read a single one of my video. Like they cannot watch my videos or understand it. They would love to. And there are so many relatives who like my stuff without even understanding what it does. So it was actually very hard to, uh, it hurts emotionally a lot to be honest because I really felt like a lone wolf doing this against all odds.
Csaba Borzasi (37:25):
But fortunately for me, I am a Lone Wolf type of character, which was a double-edged sword because in the beginning I thought that, okay, I just consume every information that I can and then I'm going to be like world-class, but it doesn't work like that. And now I'm spending like way, way, way more time on, you know, networking, building relationships, learning by doing learning by just speaking with people. Uh, because I feel at this point and it took me a long time to, uh, really internalize this. But I think at this point, I really feel like, okay, Csaba, you know, enough, it's fine. Okay. Because this goes back to imposter syndrome is that I have to constantly be at 120%, uh, awareness level. I have to like know every, the answer to every single question preemptively, whenever I enter something and before calls, you know, I would spend like an hour or something pre prepping for it and everything. And now I'm just like, let's, let's do it. And let's see what happens. I'm confident. And I think it was Ramit Sethi, uh, another like guru influencer in the financial and self development niche, uh, who said that trust your legs. Okay. Uh, it's, it's hard to do sometimes, but I think I'm, I'm doing way better in this.
Angie Colee (38:42):
That's a great analogy too, because like most of us who are fortunate enough to be able to walk when we learn to walk, you probably can't even remember all the times that you fell down, you know, might've hit your head on something, might've screamed your head off. Like that's so far in the past that it's not even a fear. It's a total non-issue. And that's what most of these things will wind up being too, like, it's really, really scary while you're doing it while you're going through it while you're falling down and getting hurt. But then later on, you're going to be like, oh, why did I wait to do that so long? So you, you said some really interesting things that I want to circle back to. One is this idea of, and I got stuck in this trap too. This idea that I have to learn all I can improve myself first before someone will give me an opportunity.
Angie Colee (39:24):
So like, I'm going to go over here and I'm going to study independently and I'm going to become a world-class expert. And then I'm going to get in the room and build these relationships. And people are going to be like, "oh my God, you're amazing. Where have you been all my life?" It actually can happen together. And you know, that ties into the second idea that I heard you say, you, you touched on this idea of knowing all the answers feeling like you're not an expert. If you don't know all the answers. And I hear that a lot with my coaching students and I, you know, I have a rebuttal for that. It's twofold one, you can't brow beat someone into taking your advice. They will resist you at every single turn. You will be known as someone that is not fun to work with.
Angie Colee (40:05):
They will find somebody else to spend their money with most likely, if you're like, I'm right, you're wrong. Fuck you. Listen to me. It's not really the way it works in business. You gotta like, you really gotta like working with the people that you're working with and trust their expertise. And if you feel like, you know, I'm putting myself in the client's shoes. If I feel like somebody that I hired is not listening to my concerns. And they're just trying to force me into a solution without trying to work with me, then you know, I'm out, I'm tuned out. I don't want to hear this. And so there's, there's a couple of additional points in that. You don't have to have all the answers. You just have to be able to figure them out. And if you are going back to your network, you know, if you've been building that network versus studying alone by yourself in a corner, um, probably they can answer your question in like five minutes flat and get you unstuck.
Angie Colee (40:56):
Um, and it's as easy. I trust. Trust me, no client has ever told me that I'm a fraud. When I've said, that's a great question. Actually, I don't know the answer to that off the top of my head. Let me go do some digging. I will get back to you on that. And then that establishes my authority in a couple of ways, you know, I'm a human being. I'm totally approachable. I don't know, but I'm going to find it out. And then when I circle back, when I said I would, right? The pro code, going back to Carlton, I show up. When I said I would having done what I said I would do. So, you know, I, I told them, I don't know the answer. I'm going to go find it. I'll report back. When I report back with all that information, they're like, you notice all these subtle cues here that I'm giving that I'm a total pro that you can trust me.
Angie Colee (41:41):
Like, I'm going to find the answers. I'm going to figure this shit out. I'm going to come back and I'm going to be here when I said I did. I don't let the not knowing, stop me from doing things. And I've never been punished by, well, we'll say a reputable client, somebody that actually knows business, there are new people to business that you might land as initial clients when you're still exploring that, you know, they, they don't know what they don't know. And you won't know what you won't know until you do. Um, that might be like, oh, you're not an expert that knows everything. I can't work with you. You'd be like, all right, best of luck. Um, here's where I, uh, hear that you can find some great people to help you with that problem. Just send them on their way, leave them better than you found them.
Angie Colee (42:25):
Even if they annoyed the fuck out of you. Always treat people with respect. Don't burn bridges, because you never know when somebody is going to go out and like learn a hard lesson and then come back to you and be like, oh Angie. Um, so I realized the last time that I went to work with you, I totally approached all of this wrong. Let's talk about how we can do this better. It happens all the time in business. And that's why kind of, that's the long way to circle back to what you said about building those relationships. That is super, super important. Start reaching out to people, even if you don't feel like you deserve to be in the same room with them. Because being in this same room with the people that you want to be like is naturally going to force you to step up your game and try to be like them learn from them. Do better than you probably could again, on your own, in a corner, in a room by yourself studying
Csaba Borzasi (43:12):
Yeah. Yeah. It's so, so weird. If you think about it, like it makes sense logically and looking back, it totally is. It's like, yeah, duh, but when you are there and you feel like you're struggling, you feel like who am I to approach these demigod characters? You know? Uh, but then you, you, I don't know, you create authority content or like you start engaging with them or you're getting the same room with them in like the same programs or maybe even live events eventually, uh, suddenly it just clicks that they're people too. And they're easy to like, it's like, you know, like, uh, insecure guys have trouble approaching attractive girls, uh, when they're younger and it's like, they feel like, you know, who am I to go to that? And I used to feel that a lot actually. Uh, but at the end of the day, you know, it's just like, just be normal, be vulnerable,
Angie Colee (44:06):
Be a person connect with another human being, regardless of whether you perceive their stations to be above yours or not. I tell you, like, I didn't really understand that point that you just made until I was on the other side of it. And that happened at the first Copy Chief Live event. And I was, and I had been working in the backgrounds, but you know, kind of quietly, I was publishing and I was growing my authority and people kinda knew who I was then. So then I'm on stage at this event. And Kevin had this rock show with a bunch of us playing together and I sang and I was so nervous. First of all, about performing in front of colleagues, I've performed in front of hundreds of strangers, thousands of strangers. But for some reason, the colleagues was make, psyching me out a little bit.
Angie Colee (44:48):
I got drunk. I left it all on the stage and had a blast. And when I walked off the stage, I got fricking mobbed and I was so overwhelmed by, oh my God, like, I just can't handle this amount of attention right now. And like, I can't process everything. And after that, you know, obviously when I sobered up, um, it just kind of clicked that like that's what these famous people get all the time when they go out somewhere, somebody that's really respected really well known in the industry, just gets people following them around like, oh my God, you're awesome. You changed my life. And it's like, it's awkward and uncomfortable. But if you go up to them and you just have a conversation, like a person just play it normal, don't have any expectation out of this. Don't, don't try and associate with them because you're trying to get something from them. Cause that kind of comes through in your vibe. Like people can intuit that even if you're not specifically asking for something, but oh man, all of this is so great, but I wanna keep talking to you for like two more hours. So we're going to have to schedule a followup for those, for sure, because I've loved every minute of this. So Csaba, thank you so much for coming on the show. Will you tell us a little bit more about where to find you?
Csaba Borzasi (45:53):
Sure. So I have a website called gameofconversions.com, but uh, so just like Game of Thrones with gameofconversions.com, I'm reworking my current stuff there. Uh, but so I recommend people to just visit my YouTube page with the playlist that I mentioned with the proven sales letter breakdowns. If you're a copywriter, if you're a marketer, if you work in advertising or you just want to see how persuasion looks like from a psychology point of view, I think you're gonna enjoy this. So we're going to leave a link below, uh, the podcast episode to the entire playlist. Uh, and I think you're going to like it.
Angie Colee (46:30):
Absolutely. I'm going to make sure that they have everything that they could possibly click on to click on, including I heard you dropped that Frozen reference. So this is going to be the Frozen, not Frozen podcast. Apparently we're going to let it go. Yes. We're going to let it go. All right. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. We are totally going to do this again.
Csaba Borzasi (46:50):
Thank you so much, Angie, and all the best to your audience.
Angie Colee (46:56):
So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick Ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show or if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permissiontokickass.com. That is all one word together, permissiontokickass.com. Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's Ass. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass.