Permission to Kick Ass

50: Chrys Clay

Episode Summary

As a business mentor, there’s no better feeling than watching someone make their entrepreneurial dreams a reality. My guest today, Chrys Clay, has made me proud. She wanted to leave her corporate job but wasn’t exactly sure of the path… so she made her own! If you’ve been lost on how to start your entrepreneurial journey, this one's for you.

Episode Notes

Here’s an unpopular truth — when starting a business, most people don’t know exactly where they’re going. Chrys didn’t let the fear of the unknown stop her from finding the freedom her corporate job left her wanting. She kept her focus on moving forward, which helped her find confidence and success as an entrepreneur. Listen to this episode to overcome any obstacle in your way (even if it’s simply taking the first step). 

Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:

This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!

Chrys’s Bio:

Over the last decade, Chrys has honed her marketing skills and taken business owners from 0 to 6 figures and 6 to 8 figures by creating intuitive marketing systems.

Businesses she’s worked with have won multiple awards using her unique funnel methodology (based on Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory!) including being named to the Inc. 5000 list of Fastest Growing Companies and the Venture 15 Fastest Growing Startups. 

Due to a chronic inability to turn off her love of systems, Chrys spends her spare time in pursuit of permaculture paradise and the greatest trip to Disney World her family’s ever seen (take that last year me)!

Resources and links mentioned:

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Episode Transcription

Angie Colee (00:01):

Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. With me today is my friend Chrys Clay. Say hi, Chrys.

Chrys Clay (00:24):


Angie Colee (00:26):

And when I say friends, I mean not to put like levels of friendship on people. I consider generally everybody to be of friends, but I actually stayed with Chrys and her family for two whole weeks earlier this year. I had no idea how it was gonna go cuz Chrys and I get along really well and I have a cat and she has a dog and several kids. Uh, but we had the most fun, I think, because we share a lot of similar philosophies in life and in business. I mean, we cut out and we're going on like theme park Tuesdays. It's fantastic. We just got back from a theme park Tuesday as we're recording this, as it turns out.

Chrys Clay (01:04):

Um, that is true.

Angie Colee (01:06):

But, uh, before I gush excitedly more about how we ride all of the roller coasters. Uh, tell us a little bit more about you and your business.

Chrys Clay (01:13):

Yeah. Thank you so much. Um, and yes, absolutely not to put levels of friendship on, but it's so nice when you have similar business philosophies and you also know how to, you know, chill and have a good time. So.

Angie Colee (01:25):


Chrys Clay (01:26):

Definitely, that's awesome. Um, yeah, so I help people who are solopreneurs usually, um, grow true marketing and business systems. Um, I have done it for, oh, I've been on my own for a couple of years now. Um, and before that I used to be a corporate executive. Yay. But since then, you know, I've taken people to who are just starting, uh, to eight figures. I've done the Ink 5,000 in my corporate career. That kind of thing, all, all the things, right. But that's kinda where we are.

Angie Colee (02:03):

I remember that because you and I met, I, you were one of my students in a coaching program several years back, and I remember we had a call because you were still in the corporate job and you were looking to make your escape. So I always thought that was fascinating. Cuz you were getting wasn't it, that you were getting more and more work added onto your plate, but, but not really able to get the, the projects and the programs pushed through that you wanted.

Chrys Clay (02:27):

Well, it was so here was the thing and it's kind of interesting, um, because the, I brought this into my, my business now too, but I was both, so I'm both head of marketing, right? And at the same time I had, uh, lot of I was managing four different departments. And one of them is, uh, culture as well. Right. So I worked very, very close closely with both the COO and the CEO and basically bounced back and forth with all the things. Right. We bounce back and forth, not just with, um, what needed to be done from a marketing standpoint, but what needed to be done from a vision standpoint, how that gets communicated, you know, to everyone, all those things. Um, they used to, and they're good friends of mine to this day. They're still great people. But, um, it's just really funny because they used to say that it, my, my job was to handle all of the people who had emotions. So, as we know, that's everyone. Right? So, um, yeah, it just kind of got to a point where you're bouncing between so many things and hard to get things out the door when that's the case that I was like, you know, I wanna do this for myself. And at first I was like, I just wanna write. Right. I was like, I, I don't wanna deal with all of this stuff. I just wanna write. And so that was when I was like, I saw Copy Chief and I met you and everybody else. And it was amazing. And you know, Angie the Valkyrie was introduced to me for the first time. Right. Every, everybody doesn't know that, that's what I call her. She's a Valkyrie, a Valkyrie queen anyway. Um, but yeah, so that, that's what, how it started, you know, and really what I was looking for was a little bit more freedom and you know, being able to do things on my own

Angie Colee (04:12):

I remember too, when you first went out on your own, which I was super proud of. I mean, when people get coaching, when we work together, the they're not always at a place where they are mentally, spiritually, intellectually, actually ready to quit the job. They're they're at different stages in the process, right. Some are just exploring it. Some are like, just give me a reason, any reason I will push the button and tell them to go fuck themselves tomorrow. Um, you were ready to go and not, not quite ready to go nuclear.

Chrys Clay (04:43):

Right. Between the two.

Angie Colee (04:45):

And I remember you wrote to me, not long after you left, you were like, okay, I officially left and I just landed my first project and it was a five figure project, right?

Chrys Clay (04:54):

Yes. Yeah. That was, and I, you know, I really wanna emphasize this cuz if anyone's listening to this and this is like, you're like, oh, but sales, I can't do sales. I was one, I would tell you always that I was not a salesperson that I couldn't sell anything. Um, the, I think the trick is with sales, you have to believe in it and feel really passionate about it. Right. Um, otherwise, yeah, I would not have been able to sell anything, but I was super, I knew what, you know, when I first got the project, I was like, I know what this can do. I know how it can do it. And I was excited to touch it. And probably the best part of the whole thing is it was for a sports team. It had been referred to me as like, oh, you know, I know she does the whole combination of things. They were looking for somebody who, who basically knew all the things. Right. And um, I looked at it and it was for a hockey team and to this day I still know zero about hockey. I, I don't, but it doesn't matter because if you do good research and you find what's at the core, what makes people make decisions, the emotional pull then it doesn't matter. Right. So yeah. It, it crazy overperformed did really, really well. And I actually worked with that team until we were in the middle of COVID and then what they were doing live events anymore. Um, but yeah, that was my first big project that I landed like right out of the gate.

Angie Colee (06:21):

I think it's, it's really important that you brought up sales because a lot of people starting in entrepreneurship or struggling with entrepreneurship, I think run into that mental block. Not good at sales. I'm I'm uncomfortable with sales. I know one question that I get from my coaching students, like I've got a sales all coming up. I'm like, okay, is it a sales call or is it a get to know you call? Is it a consult? What's going on? What, give me some context here. Usually it is a one-to-one kind of pre-qualification call and I'm like, see, this is where you're you're you're getting yourself all twisted up here because you think you've got to on call one on the first date, get this person into bed and get them to marry you. That's not what's happening here. Like this, it, this first call is about determining if you even like each other and if there's an opportunity for you to work together, because you can always quote unquote, close that sale. I don't really like that language, but it is what it is. You can always close that sale later in the back and forth in the discussion that two human beings are having, this is not just one person going "BUY MY SHIT", and the other person going "Noooo leave me alone!"

Chrys Clay (07:28):

I, you know, and that's really funny cuz this is actually, this is turned into a whole, you know, there's a whole workshop that I have inside my mastermind that's exactly that. It's because of that, because I always say you have to look at it as though this is someone that, you know, it's exactly what you said, like a date to marriage, right? Imagine if somebody, the first is like a glance, is it, was it a nice glance? Did you return it? Was it good? Like that's how it starts. You don't literally, if you had some guy chasing down the street going, Hey, you know, and I don't care how, how great he, he looks or anything he has or anything like that. But if he's running down the street going, Hey, will you please marry me? I have all these things and I can, you know, bring you all these places you would be running from that person. Like get away from me. You're terrifying. Yeah. And it's the same thing.

Angie Colee (08:17):

"I can help you with anything! Any problem you have I'll solve it!" And I think that's where people get a little bit, you know, cart before the horse with the sales process. Yes, absolutely. You would be creeped out by that person that is like giving off major neediness and insecure vibes while simultaneously really aggressively pursuing you. That is like recipe for disaster right there.

Chrys Clay (08:36):

It's not a thing. Yep.

Angie Colee (08:38):

Which is why, I mean, you don't necessarily, I don't wanna swing the pendulum and the other way and say that you can only do sales when you have a lot of confidence. But I think if you commit to exactly, like you said, at the beginning, going with products, creating a product, working with clients that have products or services that you really believe in and you've seen the transformation it can cause that suddenly makes it really easy to feel confident in the work that you're about to do because you already see some proof of what's possible. And then it's really, really easy to, it's really easy. I mean, I'm probably oversimplifying that. Uh, but I think it's really easy to have conversations when it's more, you and me are friends at the bar and you mentioned that you need help with this particular thing. I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. I just read this really amazing book. And I just like word vomit, all of you that kind of, really wonderful mental picture right there. But kike that kind of,

Chrys Clay (09:37):

Hey, I like word vomit, right?

Angie Colee (09:40):

Yeah. I, I don't think that kind of excitement and enthusiasm can really be artificially manufactured if you don't feel it, it's something about it feels off. If you're trying to be excited about something that you don't really believe in.

Chrys Clay (09:54):

I thought so. Here's, what's interesting. And um, probably other people who feel this way about sales, people say the same thing. So I think some people can manufacture it and do a great job at it. And I don't mean all salespeople, most salespeople are great, but the ones we're thinking of, like, you know, anyone who, um, has been to a used car salesperson who has tried to pressure them into a sale, they know what I'm talking about. But I, I think they can and manufacture it right. And usually use enough tactics that they can get you over the line. Um, but that's just not what I do. Like I don't work with people who, um, you know, I'm really, really particular. I don't work with people who I don't like that person in particular, like, I have to really like them because I'm gonna be working closely with them. And you know, um, everyone, if you're doing any kind of marketing work with them, they're gonna have emotional baggage along the way that you're also gonna have to deal with. So it's gotta be someone that from the start you're like, oh, they're kind of cool. And, and I really care about what they do and wanna bring, you know, a bigger, uh, audience to what they do and, and help them grow their business. So

Angie Colee (10:57):

I love that you brought that up. Cause I think that's particularly relevant to anybody that wants to be a consultant. Anybody that wants to do like high level services or projects with people. I mean, if you, if you sell some goods and they're like low dollar, you may not have the depth of the relationship with your customer that you would have as a consultant. But yeah. Oh, trust me as a consultant, you get to hear all, all of your, your clients' anxieties and fears over this new product that they're launching or how, you know, a key person on the team quit. Like you get to hear all of this stuff unfolding in real time and function almost partway as a counselor.

Chrys Clay (11:35):

Well, it's a, it's exactly true. That's what you said. That's and that's why a lot of this year, um, I added that into what I do. Like that's a lot of where you have to deal with the mindset stuff because you don't realize, you know, you can be dealing with someone coming in who, you know, they're a great client and you're like, oh, they're, you know, they're amazing. They're so much fun, everything else. And then find out that, um, you know, it's a, it's a huge warning sign. If you're on your, that first getting to know you call and you hear from a client, oh, I I've had 15 marketers and none of them have worked. Um, that's, that's a red flag. You kind of go, okay. So obviously there's some mind stuff here, right? There's some things that they, and is it something that you can manage or is it something that is go, you know, gonna be less, you know, uh, it's gonna be less appealing because it's gonna take, you know, double, triple the time to get them through something as small as launch. Um, you know, you know, I mean, just like a simple launch because you know, they've got so many things going on about it. So

Angie Colee (12:36):

I think that's a great point to bring up because, uh, you know, be when you're in business, you're dealing with other humans in business, human being the keyword. Uh, and you might think that humans are always making logical choices in their own, uh, best interest, but sometimes fear is behind the wheel of this bus and it's careening out of control wildly down a hill toward a group of children. And you are just doing your best to be like, get outta the driver's seat!

Chrys Clay (13:01):

Oh my God. And that's, that's so true. Like that's exactly right. Like when you say, I mean, that's something, thankfully I guess I, I have not ever been burdened with that misconception. Like I remember being back in school and taking economics for the first time and it's like, well, if they do this based on this and going, nobody does that. You know, and thankfully discovered behavioral economics as, as time went on and went like no people don't make, you know, logical, rational decisions on their own, the rationale.

Angie Colee (13:34):

Interesting. Talk to me about behavioral economics for a second. Like I'm not asking necessarily for a full, like, full on breakdown, but I think that's really interesting to, to be better able to understand how people make decisions and behave, especially when you've got emotions and humanity involved.

Chrys Clay (13:52):

Yeah. So actually this is really a, I don't know this, you're probably gonna find this really funny. So, so finding my way to marketing was like a really interesting roundabout way because, um, I first went into psychology at a school and mental health and tons of red tape and all of those things. Um, and you know, anyone who has been, or has had a mental health career can tell you it's really challenging. I, because there's a lot of just a lot of things that are difficult to get people, the results that they need. Right. So doing that and going, okay, this is not like I'm gonna be changing everyone's lives and it's gonna be so easy. Right. Um, that I thought it was gonna be going in when you're, you know, a young college kid and you think, you know, you're in all of that, right?

Angie Colee (14:33):

God, I wish I know half of the shit that I thought I knew when I was in my twenties.

Chrys Clay (14:37):

Exactly. Um, you know, so I did a complete 180 and went into corporate finance and was like, all right, I'm gonna learn this because I wanna deal with anyone's emotions. It's just money. And of course, right. But of course, you know, that's also not completely true, but eventually, um, just putting those two things together, psychology and money there's marketing, right? It was a good mixture. But as far as behavioral economics is concerned, and this is why it's important to me is because you have to understand that while there is some good data on what things should do in a system basically if humans aren't involved, it shows you how to kind of work with those two things together. Like humans are involved. So for example, things like, um, we are much more afraid to not lose anything. We're always gonna make a choice to not lose something we already have instead of make a choice to go try to gain something new, which is, to me really funny, like the probability of a human going like, oh, I'm gonna move towards, you know, move towards pleasure instead of away from pain is, uh, it's nothing for the vast majority of people.

Angie Colee (15:43):

Like that ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You know, I always hated that until it suddenly made sense to me, like how I struggle sometimes to go to the gym, even though I know going to the gym and doing my workout routine is going to stave off a whole host of potential health complications in the future when I work on my fitness, but some days I just wanna sit on the couch and watch TV, you know what I'm saying?

Chrys Clay (16:08):

Like, but that's actually, I mean, but that's a logical choice. What they're talking about more is like, when you say like the probability, like say, you know, if you say something like, well, I could give you the opportunity, right, to roll this dye and win double the money that you have in your pocket. Right. Um, or I can give you, you know, and they've done studies on this. I can give you an opportunity to not lose anything that you have. Right. And it's really funny because you're like, you're so much less likely to pick something that's going to, you know, to take the risk, to make something, uh, more than what you have, rather than not losing anything that you have. So it's just really, really interesting.

Angie Colee (16:50):

I do, you know, that's really interesting too, cuz I can see kind of a thread in the underlying fears behind why some people struggle to quit the job and start the business because of this same kind of choice. What if I lose everything on this gamble versus staying safe with the devil I know here.

Chrys Clay (17:08):

Yes. That's behavioral economics.

Angie Colee (17:11):

Oh yeah. By the same token. What if you could five X, what you were doing at your job and get a lot more freedom and be able to call the shots. Like I loved to go back to what you were talking earlier and this, this will make sense in a minute. I promise. But bear with me. Um, you talk, you talked about managing multiple teams for your old client. And I made this note on my notepad about how you were wearing multiple hats, not unlike what it is to be an entrepreneur in day to day life, especially with a small one or two person team where you really are wearing all those hats. If you're not wearing all the hats, you are dealing with contractors and you're still having to manage those multiple things. So that's a skill that you already had on the job. And I think a lot of people, especially newer to entrepreneurship, they kind of do this. I don't have the business skills. I don't know if I'll be able to figure it out, but like, look at you translating, running multiple teams for somebody else to running multiple things for your own business and being able to like, you probably already have a lot of the skills that you need, but you've got some sort of mental block in there. That's not letting you see how transferable this skill is and how it's gonna reduce the risk that you're gonna lose everything.

Chrys Clay (18:24):

Yeah. So it's not, so this is the interesting thing about this and I could go really it deep into this is neuroplasticity, right? So I mean, this is what happens is we have, you know, and you can call it whatever you want, but just, you know, for easy terms, right. We're gonna call it the lizard brain, the mammal brain and the person, the human brain. Right. It's like humans have like three brains built and don't mind me I'm talking neuroscience of course.

Angie Colee (18:48):

Let's go deep. Do it.

Chrys Clay (18:51):

So, right. So you have your, your lizard brain, you know, underneath that's the basic brain and then the mammal brain built over the top. And then of course your human brain on top. So, so over the top of that. So it's like three layers. The bottom layer is the lizard brain and that's in charge of breathing and blinking and sneezing, all those things. Right? The mammal brain's job is to keep you alive. That is the job. Okay. So that, that brain is it, it goes, okay, we've gotten to a point, you're an adult. Now this works. What is happening? Going on around me works. Now it doesn't matter that you're stressed cuz you're working 60 hours a week. You're alive so mammal brain says, woo success, keep doing that. Right.

Angie Colee (19:32):

It doesn't matter. You're the most miserable you've ever been. You're alive. We're winning.

Chrys Clay (19:35):

You are alive. And the mammal brain is winning. Right? Um, the unfortunate part is it's the self-actualization if you also know like Maslow's hierarchy of needs at the top is your human brain. That's the brain that says, I want fulfillment. I want more, I wanna do things. And whenever the human brain chimes in with that stuff, the mammal brain goes, listen, we've already built the maps. We have the networks here they are. There are no maps for what you're talking about. Right.

Angie Colee (20:03):

Maps meaning like from, from different parts of the brain to?

Chrys Clay (20:07):

Yeah. So every time we do a thing, it builds a map. And when you're a kid, you build million maps because the kid needs to survive and has no idea how to survive. So everything's new. But once you get to adulthood, it's already built all of these maps. It's already drawn them all. They're all there. So it goes, we know that this is a pattern of survival and the human brain says, but I wanna do more. I wanna make more money. I want more freedom. I want all these things. And the mammal brain says no way in hell, cause I have the maps and we have no maps for that. So forget you. Right?

Angie Colee (20:36):


Chrys Clay (20:37):

So that, and that's why people get stuck in, you know, in their jobs, not being able to leave them because they don't have any maps and that's, you know, and that's also why that's become a really important part of what I do, both in my mastermind with my clients, because I'm like, Hey, I know you don't have any maps, but I do. I've got maps and I can show you and I can show you this example and this example and this example and you know, because that's what you're doing when you're writing a sales page and you've got the testimonials and they're in the emails, what you're doing is overcoming that person's mammal brain and having them go, oh, but look, here's some hints of maps. We can make a map from this. So yeah, that's sorry. That's really long and drawn out.

Angie Colee (21:17):

But no, that like, that kinda reminds me of how, for years I struggled with going hiking because I had this fear like really deep seated fear. I don't know where it comes from of being lost. And being, and it, I mean, it's a real fear because there are situations where you could wind up off the trail and just, and, and, you know, that happens unfortunately to lots of hikers every year that they go off the trail, they get lost some don't survive. Um, but I've also found that I, you know, like I'm very comforted by loops. So when I started going out to trails and, and seeing how far I could get without a map and without obsessing over whether I was taking a right step with every step that I took, I could feel comforted letting go of the visibility of the trail marker for a little while. And just following the path, knowing eventually I'm gonna come up on another trail market that tells me, okay, you're on the right trail. Or mmmm you wound up off somewhere. You need to retrace your steps and figure out where you got off the trail. So interesting. I didn't even know I was gonna make that comparison until it just kind of tumbled out of my mouth there. But I do think of this a lot, like hiking, sometimes you're gonna wind up on the wrong trail and you just gotta backtrack a little bit and find the right marker to tell you where to go.

Chrys Clay (22:31):

Exactly. Right. And, and the other thing is too, like when you do something like that's one of the big things, when you ask me, like, what things do do I care enough about to even talk about? Um, but one of them is exactly that, like you just have to get started, give yourself whatever kind of ammo you need. Like that client that you talked about. That, that first one I closed that was like a five figure project. And by the way, went into way more than that over the course of a year. Um, you know, that all was, you know, all of that was done without I had no website. I had no email list. I had none of those things like, you know, you go, well, what proof do you have that you can do all the, and um, no proof, there was no proof at all. It was just like, I did it, we talked it through and it was kind of like, you know, let's see, let's see what it looks like. You know? Um, you know, you can do certain things. And when you give yourself the chance to just try it, even if it's like hiking, that's starting to build that map map, you know, could go on to hiking the Appalachian Trail. If you wanted it to, you know, it will go to a lot of things for me, it's gone into, you know, I have a, a complete, you know, full stack agency at this point. And, you know, and I run a mastermind, teaching other people how to do it. So, um, you gotta give yourself the chance, even if it's, it's not, you know, it's not failure. It, it is giving your yourself enough, you know, room to actually go, okay, so this, this part didn't work. I talk a lot about, um, it's one of my favorite phrases is shoe tying entrepreneurs. I like every single, every single time you go to tie shoes when you're a little kid and I can speak to this well, because I really, really tried to convince people when I was five, um, that I could walk around in velcro shoes forever, cuz I could not get how to tie my own shoes. But really I was like, I don't understand why adults don't have Velcro. This is way faster and more efficient. It doesn't make any sense. Anyway, point being, I promise this has point, um, point being as entrepreneurs every single time. Um, and even as a child, every time I tied my shoes I tried. Every single time, got me one step closer to a completely tied shoe, right? Every time I took the shoe lace and put it around the loop every single time I was getting closer to having my shoes tied. And once you have them tied, have I ever in my life forgotten to how you know how to tie my shoes? No you won't. And it's the same thing. If you send out an email campaign, if you're, you know, if you're an email copywriter and it falls flat, find out where, find out how, how look at how to look at the data because it's not necessarily it's bad copy it's you know, there's so many things it could be so give yourself the chance to try the thing, start the thing and then learn from there. There's we give ourselves so much pressure to get everything right? The first time as adults. And it's just not a thing it's no different than when we were kids.

Angie Colee (25:22):

Yeah. I love that because I think I I've talked about before, how I think of business, especially for people that are new to business is like, think of it like a lemonade stands. If you didn't have one of those, when you were a kid, um, then, then picture a, an industrious entrepreneurial young kid who wants to make a couple quick bucks, sets up a table on the corner on a hot summer day with a little pitcher of lemonade that they made and starts charging people who walk by for cups of lemonade. They have a thing to sell lemonade. They cold lemonade. They have people to sell it to thirsty people on a hot day, they have a way to take money, uh, cash please. And they have a way to get in touch, which is they're sitting out there and people can talk to them. That's really the four major components that you need. Nowhere in there was a website, a merchant processor, like a business license. Although I have heard of some dicksw being jerks to children in general, like you're selling lemonade on my street corner. Are you permitted for that?

Chrys Clay (26:17):

Gosh, I have never seen that. That's horrible.

Angie Colee (26:19):

Are you permitted for your face, stupid asshole? Um, let the kids be entrepreneurs. Don't crush their dreams!

Chrys Clay (26:27):

Right? Encourage that. My goodness.

Angie Colee (26:30):

Yeah, but like, I think you brought it full circle for me in that line of thinking with me that I think when we, we get, uh, caught up in this need to, I've gotta have all the paperwork filed. I've gotta have all the bank accounts set up. I gotta get the website. Right. I gotta get all the offers written and everything like that before we even go out and try to find business that we're trying to build a thing that we don't even know what it looks like yet. So we don't have a map for, we don't even know where we're going, so we don't have a map and we're just kind of floundering. And then we wonder why we fail.

Chrys Clay (27:01):

Exactly. Right. And by the way, there are a couple things I wanna say to that. So first, like even if that kid got out there with that lemonade stand and didn't get, make one sale, you know, the kid is not going to come back in and say that doesn't work. I'm onto something else. Right? Kids are kids. They are given a lot more because we are, you know, wonderful. Or we try to be wonderful loving parents. You know, they, it will come back and say, you know what, mom, what if I put strawberries in the lemonade? Would that work? What if I offered ice tea? Somebody asked me for ice tea today, kids are gonna naturally think of creative solutions. And you do the same thing. It doesn't mean that you're bad at what you're doing. It means that there are other things that you've gotta try. Right. And then just one other point to what you were just saying. I think it's really funny. All those things, you know, you said, oh, you would need this. You would need that. My husband, when I was like, I'm gonna start this, I'm gonna do this thing on my own was like, well, we don't even have a, you don't even have a business plan. You don't have this, you don't have that. And I was like, whatever, I'm, I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna do it. And not because he's, you know, he's wonderfully and supportive in general. It's just that his mammal brain is a lot more, um, drives the bus a lot more than mine does. So, you know, so he was like, you don't have all these things. And I was just kind of like, well, I'm gonna do it. And I'm just gonna figure it out as I go. Not that I wasn't just as scared, but you know, not for nothing as of January, this year, he left his job and he works in my business now. So , it works. It works. You just have to go and start the thing. And, and for him, he needed that level of stability before he could say, yeah, it's safe to leave my job. Right. Um, again, not to say, I, when it comes to, you know, that's a whole different conversation, but when it comes to couples in, you know, whether one person is an entrepreneur or the other one is they usually both always end up being entrepreneurs. Whether they like it or not. And, uh, and having that more, you know, Simon Sinek would say and start with why the, how personality and the why personality together. That's rocket fuel. Right. Which is another great book.

Angie Colee (29:03):

That is interesting. I do wanna to, I wanna dig into that. The how and the why, yeah. In a second. Um, but what was interesting to me is, you know what, nevermind, let's go into how and why, because I just lost that train of thought.

Chrys Clay (29:18):

Did everyone see why we're friends? We'll just go on this forever.

Angie Colee (29:22):

We'll just, we'll just keep talking. It'll probably come back to me in a little bit. So the how person and the why person. Yeah. Like I'm somebody that understands both sides of those but I think I naturally lean toward, um, why and yeah, I'm just, I'm interested in your take on that because I think a lot of people that are especially new to business, they don't really have a why other than, I don't know, start a business and see what happens. And they kind of wonder why they get disenchanted with it when they hit a couple bumps in the road, in the row, in a row and it's like, am I even meant to do this?

Chrys Clay (30:00):

Okay. I, I, you know, sigh here because I, I have to tell you, these are these, if you are, are listening and this, these are my heart, right? This is my heart right here. Because the reason that you're ready to give up so quickly is because for a lot of you, and I know, because I felt this for a lot of you, you feel like there is something wrong with you. Maybe you've never been able to work a nine to five in your life without totally hating it. After a few months and, you know, needing some sort of change or something along those lines. And, you know, you've been told your whole life by a lot of very well-meaning loving people that, well, you know, you're just, you just have to settle in and mature or something along lines. And nine, nine times outta 10, that's not the case. It's because you, you know, we have that disconnect between it's okay to learn like the path of the why is not clear. Again, going back to Simon Sinek, he says, you know, hows are almost always, okay, they'll figure it out. They will find a way to, you know, cuz they can work that nine to things can stay consistently the same for years and years on end and their mammal brain is happy. So they're, they're doing their thing. But for why's, uh, there's a very small percentage of us who are successful. And the vast majority of us are doing things like, you know, bagging groceries or are doing other things that are, you know, because it's really hard to get consistency. And I would say, if you have gotten so far to finally start the thing that is, it's scary to start being an entrepreneur. If, and if you've finally gotten to that point, do not give up, keep going, cuz it is your path. Just find it, you know, you have to keep going. If you can find a way to get paid, while you learn to that's basically the best thing you can do. Like, don't go. I have to know. I mean, yes I it's true. I, I know I'm a full stack marketer, so I, I get how marketing systems work. That's true. did it start that way? No, of course it didn't. It doesn't start that way. I learned a little bit at a time started that, see if that worked, you know, people paid me to do it and, and just kept building, you know, my skills and that's just

Angie Colee (32:09):

Had some wins, had some losses. Like figured out how to engineer more wins and fewer losses. Presumably, I think that's how most of us operate, but we kind of forget that that's part of the curve as well.

Chrys Clay (32:21):

Yeah. My losses as my losses as have really come down to more than anything else, like my marketing, thankfully, knock on wood cuz you never know. Right. But like, but my marketing, for the most part, those are wins. Right. But my losses have been things like learning I'm, you know, I can be multi passionate, just like, like the majority of my clients, I wanna do all the things it's, you know, you have to learn how to go, you do this thing and then make sure it's working and flying before you start the next thing. And the next thing, so management is, is my obstacle more than anything.

Angie Colee (32:54):

I'm so bad at finishing things that I start, like it's, it's a miracle that you were listening to this podcast right now. And that's because I found a how person.

Chrys Clay (33:04):

Yes. See exactly right. Yeah.

Angie Colee (33:06):

Who literally built a system. Okay. Let let's geek out over the podcast for a second. Because I, I wound up like getting so overwhelmed with the production of it one night that I literally St and it was the night that the podcast goes I'm up at like nine or 10 o'clock at night writing all of these assets and stuff like that. Getting ready to push all the buttons. And I got so frustrated at why am I struggling to write I'm a writer. Why am I struggling to write this? Especially since I love this show. And every single conversation I've had has been great has taught me some really amazing stuff. I love the philosophies of the people that I'm meeting. Um, I love learning more about their businesses and their, their thought processes. Why am I struggling to write this? I should love this. This is a labor of love. This, like, it costs money to produce a podcast. It takes a lot of time until you get your system styled in. So I, I stopped writing that night in a fit of aggravation and I brain dumped like a 20 minute super rambley video on my assistant. Who is that? The aforementioned how person and was like, these are like the 25 steps I have to take to make every single episode alive. And writing is only one of them. Hell, before I knew it. She had translated this into this gigantic tracking spreadsheet. I know who's coming on. What number episode they're gonna be when they're recorded, when they're airing, I've got their bios, their asset, like everything is all filed. It's all in that spreadsheet. Um, she automated the intake process so that somebody that signs up for my podcast, all I have to do is send a zoom link. They book a time that's convenient for them. And I know to show up on a date and then the system takes care of everything else. It emails them like reminder. Here's how to think about the topics. Here's how to record a podcast. If you've never been on one reminder, again, here's your link. And then all I do again, is show up and I pass off the audio when it's done to my editor, who makes everything sound great and removes the sounds that I've been trying to mute this entire fucking episode of my cat, doing weird things.

Chrys Clay (35:07):

Oh, that's funny. I didn't even notice that

Angie Colee (35:10):

I've been quick on the mute button this one, but she, oh, she's been running around. Of course. Now she's taking a nap in the background and then I hired another person who takes all of that, turns it into show notes and pushes the buttons and makes it live, which allowed me to be fully in the thing that I love and continue with that. Why again, which is to show other entrepreneurs and business owners. If you feel like you're constantly fucking it up, or it's a struggle, or you're dealing with massive anxiety and head trash, you can good news. You can have all of that and still build a really amazing business. Cuz trust me, there is not a day that goes by that. I'm not like, do I really know what I'm doing? Why do people pay me money? I don't even understand.

Chrys Clay (35:51):

Um, cause you're working in your, like there's only three things that you have to give the world, right? And that is talent time and treasure. Right. And you often and openly gift people with both your talent and your time. So you definitely deserve the treasure in, in response.

Angie Colee (36:08):

I'll give you all the time. If the time goes to Disney or good restaurants.

Chrys Clay (36:16):

Oh, you all, yeah. I apologize to anyone it effects for introducing Angie to Theme Park, Tuesdays, if all of your fees are getting, so that, that is just a thing that I, and it's funny cuz I can bring it right back to the why and the how are you ready? Because, because, um, and wait a second. Yeah. No. Okay. I'll come back to that. But, but because I'm like, wait, I had a point about the podcast. Okay. But here's the thing. So we started Theme Park Tuesdays. Um, literally when we moved down to Florida just a few months ago, because on weekends, right weekends, the theme park is more crowded. Right. So, and this is all the, all the theme parks we've got like all the passes and whatever, but like they're all more crowded on the weekend. So I had to ask myself as a true, why personality would, why am I going, oh, I have to have a work week that's Monday through Friday. Right? There is no reason that I have to do that. So I was like, um, we're taking off Tuesdays and they're gonna be theme park Tuesdays. And so then when Angie came, came over, I was like, so we're doing theme park Tuesdays. And she was like, oh I'm so doing this. And we started and it's great, but I can bring this back because Walt Disney was a why personality. Roy, his brother was an incredible how personality. And, and Walt actually said that the only reason people even got paid at the Disney company is because Roy was the person to figure that out like that, to give you an I like, if you're like, oh, well Walt had to have all the things. No, he totally didn't. He was really lucky to have his brother there. But that doesn't mean, and I'm gonna bring it back to the podcast now that you can't have it too, because in the beginning, if you're saying, you know, the only thing that I'm good at or really talented that is doing exactly that talking and having these conversations. And I have things I wanna share. Like I know you wanna say, well, Angie can do that. Cuz she's hired this person and hired that person. But how will I ever get there? Listen, bartering in the beginning. Right? If you know, you're a why person and you know, a good how person barter that go back and forth. Let them help you with that. Once you get going a little bit, you know, I want you to charge money, both of you back and forth, even with your friends. But, but if that's what you need to get going, there's a million different ways to get a thing done. Right? Most of the time it's just the it's the, the mind tricks that will go. You can't do that. Cuz man, that mammal brain wants to keep driving that bus in the same direction you've been going.

Angie Colee (38:44):

I'm so glad you brought that up. Cuz that was, that was a point that I wanted to make too. Oh, okay. That a lot of people might be hearing that and thinking, yeah, well Angie, you have help Chrys. You have help. Of course you can build a business like that. I didn't always have help.

Chrys Clay (38:57):

I had no help.

Angie Colee (38:58):

Honestly, I, I also waited way too long to get help. Once I started getting the money in, because again, that mammal brain was like, Hey, we like this level of money. Why do we have to share it with anybody? If we share it with anybody, we don't know if we can trust that person to actually plus versus run a way with our money. So why don't you just continue to do everything by yourself and you keep all the money more profit, right? And also the makings of a good old fashioned mental breakdown.

Chrys Clay (39:26):

Yes. Burnout. Hello burnout. My old friend, right?

Angie Colee (39:29):

Oh God, not my old friend. Burnout can die a fire for all I care.

Chrys Clay (39:35):

Right, right. These days. Definitely. That's true. But in the beginning, that is what happens. Even if it's not like, oh, I'd be fine with parting with my money. I mean, I still, I I've had, this has happened to me in the past. You have a client, um, who is ready to go and they will pay you your, you know, your really nice project fees and everything else. Then still try to write all of, you know, whatever they're doing themselves. And you're kind of like, what are you, what are you paying for me? Me for exactly. Like, you could do this, you could do this on your own.

Angie Colee (40:07):

I've gotten to that cheeky point of my career where I ask people that like with all the love that I have.

Chrys Clay (40:13):

All the love I have, I love the Angieism.

Angie Colee (40:15):

It's like my signature. With all the love I have, you do realize you hired me to do this thing, right? Yes. I'm not really understanding right now why you're also doing the thing that you hired me. I, it, it, you could cut out the middle person here and just do it yourself, but I don't think it's gonna be very effective for either of us. If I continue to do this and you continue to do this, let's talk about how to fix that.

Chrys Clay (40:38):

Yeah. You're so good at that. Definitely. By being able to just come right out and say that that's for sure. Really good. Yeah. I have a lot of these days, I have a lot of safeguards at the outset that make me go, okay, let me really vet you and see how you are. See how things are, make sure that, you know, no red flags come up because you know, going all the way back to the, that beginning conversation that we had, that sales conversation is not just about whether or not they like you, you need to know that you like them. Right.

Angie Colee (41:06):

So, so, so good. And I think like, I love the fact that you talk about having these systems and processes in place to help you identify a good fit client for you and identify, raise those red flags if necessary. And I wanna also circle back to what we talked about. You didn't have those in the beginning. How do you find out what a red flag is? You run face first into one guys!

Chrys Clay (41:28):

Yeah. That's exactly right. Yes. You run face first. And, and the other thing too is part of that process. And here's the funny thing, that first big project that I took on, um, the person who passed it to me, uh, I told her like, okay, there's some things in this contract that they want that I'm not really sure about. I've never done all of these things. I was told by my mentor at the time she was like, uh, no, don't do it. I wouldn't do it. And, and she was like, you know, cuz I don't know if that's gonna be a thing and I did not listen to that. And it wasn't like, was she right about what she said like, oh, it's gonna be hard in other areas and whatever she was. Right. But you know what? I got my feet wet with that contract and I came out of the gate being able to command big prices because of that. Yeah. So it might be a little bit, you know, a little bit, you know that your first project might be a little bit harder than you would think or something along those lines or have a little bit more. And of course you go, what you do is exactly what we said before. Like if you go out and put that lemonade stand up and it doesn't sell, you throw some strawberries in the next time or the other way it sells. But now you're like working all day till seven o'clock at night pouring lemonade, then you go, okay, now my hours are till three, right? You make adjustments. There are just things that you're gonna do and, and be excited and glad it's not gonna be perfect from the outset, but this is how you get the reps in. Right.

Angie Colee (42:51):

Ah, that's so perfect. And that's the perfect note it to end on. This is how you get the reps in the reps are what's important, not the perfection, the perfection, it's not even perfection the, the talent and the skill that makes you feel confident in what you do comes from the reps. So it's important to get in the reps and course correct as you go. I love that. So Chrys, this has been fantastic conversation and not just because I adore you as a human being and we just rode roller coasters all day.

Chrys Clay (43:20):


Angie Colee (43:22):

Tell us a little bit more about your business, where to find more information about you. Yeah.

Chrys Clay (43:28):

Yeah. Thank you. Um, so you can find me at That's Chrys with a Y. So it's forward slash visionary. Because why personalities, right? So, so yeah, so you can find out a little bit more there. Um, what I'd really like to say more than anything else is I love helping people figure out how to make those systems work. Those why personalities you creatives. That's what we're all about. Um, my mastermind specifically, teaching people entrepreneurship as a holistic system that we just talked about. And so that's what I love and what I'm passionate about. And thanks for having me on.

Angie Colee (44:11):

No problem. And I'm gonna circle back on that and say, definitely go check that out. I'll make sure that they have a clickable link in the show notes, but you know, another big why behind this show is that for so long, I dealt with this head trash of I'm a creative, I don't get business. I don't understand business business is beyond me guys. I have a fucking business degree and I still had this head trash about I don't get business so you can learn business. And trust me, it's way more interesting when it's actually your business. These lessons have a way of sticking. I tell you from firsthand ADHD experience, uh, it sticks a lot more when it comes directly from my business versus the stuff that I learned in a classroom 10 years ago. So you can learn it. You can create a business that you want. You just have to have that vision. You have to have that why and you have to get help when you need it. So go check out Chrys's site. Thank you so much for being on the show. Chrys, we're gonna have to do this again.

Chrys Clay (45:06):

Thank you for having me. I'd love to.

Angie Colee (45:12):

So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick Ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show or if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to That is all one word together, Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's Ass. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass.