Permission to Kick Ass

Whitedove Gannon: Making the Rules for Your Business

Episode Summary

My guest today, Whitedove Gannon, has a special skillset that isn’t as valued in business as it should be — awareness. Sounds a little “woo” or meditative, but when you seriously apply this in your business (and life) you can change the freaking world if you want to. Listen now to find out why awareness is the permission you’ve been waiting for to do something great.

Episode Notes

After 13 years of running a successful business with her husband (and a couple of her own side hustles, too), Whitedove decided to step out on her own. I love her approach – she’s all about challenging industry “norms” that are no longer serving the world, and breaking the “rules” of what it means to be a mom and entrepreneur. Best of all: she didn’t stop for one second to seek out permission… and neither should you. 

Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:

This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!

Whitedove’s Bio:

Building a not only successful but sustainable business as an online entrepreneur is one of the most difficult challenges you’ll ever take on.

As a mother and entrepreneur, I shifted and pivoted my businesses to find a balance that provided financial freedom and time independence while giving me an outlet to create a positive social impact.

After 20 years of being an entrepreneur, having created and scaled multiple 6 and 7+ figure businesses, and helping countless entrepreneurs scale theirs, I’ve discovered the strategies and formulas to create a sustainable digital product regardless of the industry.

Resources and links mentioned:

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Episode Transcription

Angie Colee (00:01):

Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass with me today is my new friend Whitedove Gannon. Say, hi.

Whitedove Gannon (00:24):

Hi, How are you guys?

Angie Colee (00:27):

Oh, well I'm doing fantastic. And all of the listeners I imagine are responding on mass. That's gonna give me a fun little mental picture later on. So tell us a little bit about what you do, what kind of business you're in.

Whitedove Gannon (00:38):

I'm a serial entrepreneur. Let's just, let's go with that one and I'll give you just blips, because I don't want this to be all about, you know, the entire journey. Uh, but I have,

Angie Colee (00:48):

Oh, we'll dig into the journey. Don't you worry!

Whitedove Gannon (00:50):

We'll get to the backside of the journey for sure. But at this point in time, I have an agency, G7 creative agency where we design and create many courses for business owners.

Angie Colee (01:00):

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, I work, um, I, I do consulting and copy chiefing for a friend of mine's agency. Uh, and he does email marketing, so like I'm still in the agency world and I love it. And then I also love my podcast, so it's great. We all get to do different things. It's fantastic. Um, so we were talking a little bit before the call about, and I'm kind of obsessed with this too. There are rules in business, there are unspoken rules, there's this, these little niggling things about how you're supposed to behave and what reality is supposed to be like. But I think we internalize them and we don't really talk a lot about, but you mentioned that you really like figuring out a way to break the rules, to make them fit to the way you want to live your life. So I just wanna dig deep into this. Let's go break the rules.

Whitedove Gannon (01:46):

Let's do it. I, I challenge myself often, often, often because in how I was raised in, you know, I'm in my forties. And so most people that can resonate with being Gen X or close to that timeframe born in the seventies can understand that we carry some of the old ideologies and the old thought processes, how we are supposed to show up, especially feminine energy. And so in, in that, as being a wife, a mother, um, a business partner, um, all the above, all of those things, all of my stuff for the longest time, that things that I would create my creative desires, my ability to build a business was all be always hobbyish. It was always just my little side thing. It was never really, uh, designed to be multi six figures, seven figures in and of itself that was reserved for creating a corporation with my husband. And we don't have that, that business anymore. We shut it down after 13 years. The time had come, but nothing and nothing I'm saying about this is in any way, shape or form a knock towards any other path of how it's doing it. I want to bring attention to the fact that I can, I can, and I have, and I do create a business that is independently mine. It is independently successful. It is independently with its own bank account. I don't have to ask my husband permission to spend money. Now, some people might decide that they want to do that inside of, you know, their, their partnership bliss or whatever. I make decisions for my business because that's what my business needs. If it's a big sizable financial decision, I'll let him know that's what I'm doing. I'll let 'em know the resources are there for it in my business. You know, my business has to be its own entity and of it in and of itself, but I'm not asking permission. And I grew up with the fact that I was kind of, you know, a side. I was, you know, the Robin to the Batman. You know, I was the side person. I was the, the, uh, support team. I was the person that, you know, um, made the day better when he got home from work or all those things. We didn't start it out that way because we started our construction company, um, very early on in our relationship. So we really came into it as a pair. And that then when I started my own, uh, entrepreneurial ventures from there, which have been several, uh, I started them as hobbies. I started them as side things. I started 'em as time fillers. And then I raged about two years ago, I raged against the mompreneur title. And I wrote a post about, I said, gals, women, we have to stop accepting these cute terms for what it is we're doing, because a business is a business is a business. If you are generating income and you have your ducks in a row with your business has its own account. You're, you're doing your accounting. I, again, I went to school and became an accountant too. So I have that aspect to it, but if we're doing this, it's a business. We don't have dadpreneurs out there. We don't have-

Angie Colee (04:44):

Can I rage? I'm gonna rage about that too. Fucking boss babe? God, stop. Stop it. Okay. Uh, you know, I don't hate you as a person, if you identify as boss babe, but it's so annoying, So annoying.

Whitedove Gannon (04:57):

And I'm gonna put a spin to that. It, it actually reduces the power of your business and where you can take your business by accepting those terms. And I've, I make no excuse for the fact that I understand women find a niche in there. They find a comradery in there. They find like mindness in there. But, girl if you've got a business, I don't care if you're building it and kicking ass when your kids are sleeping for a nap, or if it's on your kitchen table, or if you've got a big, huge corporate office, it's a fucking business. Treat it like that, own it like that, and go crush the world with it because there's no reason to limit yourself and being able to grow. That is a rule that we have subconciously set on ourselves by adopting that terminology.

Angie Colee (05:46):

I totally agree. And it it's such a subtle thing. I don't disagree with anywhere that you find community. And if you find comfort in a mompreneur community, absolutely those are your people. Be there, build that business, do that thing, but look at what you call yourself and how you identify and see if that is really supporting where you wanna go with this. If you wanna have a serious business, or if it's subtely undermining exactly, like you said, and I wanted to point out, like I was making notes while you were talking, there was a couple great things I wanted to spotlight. I think they're fantastic. And they're really smart. Um, you talked about permission and how you were making decisions. And I think that's a critical distinction to draw, especially for people that are new to business. And if they're freelancing creating a business for a new time, like you are the business owner, you make decisions, you don't ask anybody for permission. This isn't like the old job where you had to go get approval to do something. You run your business like you see fit. You learn on the consequences of your decisions, good or bad. Uh, hopefully they're good. We're, we're gonna make our best, most informed decision with all the information that we've got, but we're gonna make a decision. We're gonna take action. And we're gonna figure out how to recover from there. Yeah. Yeah. There's my rant. Like you're not asking for permission. You don't have a boss to go to you are the boss, you make the calls,

Whitedove Gannon (07:05):

Decisions. And decisions are decisions. No bad. Uh, there's no bad decision. There's just outcomes that we didn't see based on the knowledge that we went into that decision with like, guess what we learned. We learned going through that. So then we just, we outcome adjust from there and say, okay, this is what we didn't see on the other side of this decision, but standing in making a decision for your business, if you wanna be, if you wanna, if you desire to grow your business to a CEO role, um, either a big corporation. If, if you want to just have a side business, a side hustle side hobby, and just bring in something that just feeds your creative soul, nothing wrong with that. It's fine. There. It's beautiful to be there. And I know some amazing women that own businesses in that, in that world. But if you want to grow something and my desire was to always grow something that was bigger and bigger and bigger. It's not a financial number I wanna hit it. It's how, how far can I go? What could I not do? Show me what I can't do. It's almost me testing the boundaries of what can't I do then, because what I do know is that I can figure out what I can do quite well, um, to a disadvantage sometimes because my creative mind goes squirrel a lot, but I love the squirrel. I love the squirrel. But if you want to build your business to a CEO level, a corporate level, or even a small business, multi six figure, and you know that that person in 2, 3, 4 years, when you're hitting multi six figures, if you're hitting 50,000 a year, right now you're hitting multi six figures in 2, 3, 4 years. Guess what you're gonna be? You need to start being that person now, instead of waiting until that point to show up to be that person so own it now own her, him, her, whoever own it now, because you're going to need to be that person eventually. And you know it.

Angie Colee (08:52):

And I that's an amazing insight too. I think that really ties into that other point that I wanted to highlight this. And I think it's an awareness, right? Cuz neither one of us are judging you for having a hobby business or a side hustle that doesn't make you any less of a serious entrepreneur than somebody that's after 6, 7, 8 figures and beyond. What I am saying. And I, I think what Whitedove is saying is, well is if you want a serious business know that you want a serious business and stop treating it like a hobby, right? If you want a hobby, stop pressuring yourself to turn this into a seven figure empire. If you're not, if you don't have the time or the energy or the desire to invest in this, to the level that you've gotta grow it to. So like being aware of what you want to achieve from your business, if it's spare cash, great. If it's, uh, an empire bent on world domination, great, uh, go for it. I humbly submit to our robot overlords it's coming and I'm weak. Like it's gonna happen.

Whitedove Gannon (09:49):

Well, and one little thing to that too is that you don't need permission to change your mind.

Angie Colee (09:54):


Whitedove Gannon (09:56):

Either way. If you're, if you, if you want to have a hobby business right now for side cash. Cool. If you decide in a year, you want to go be world domination done, do it. If you are in world domination mode, you're like, you know what? This isn't what I wanted to. This is not what I want to have out there or what I want to be doing. Cool. Back it up. You don't need to ask permission. You don't have to explain yourself. You don't need to worry about that. Be okay with making that decision to change.

Angie Colee (10:23):

I love that you added that because I think a lot of the struggles that I have with my students is they feel like if they hang their shingle out there and they say, I specialize in X that forever more, I am doomed to be a specialist in X. And I'm like, this is for now. It's not forever. You could change your mind tomorrow. I'm gonna encourage you to commit to it for a couple months and see how it goes. But you, every decision that you make can be undone aside from death. Like if it's not end, there's a chance to do it differently. That doesn't mean it's gonna be easy to undo the choices you've made, but you can always undo them. You can accept a job. You can back outta that job two days later.

Whitedove Gannon (11:04):

That's right.

Angie Colee (11:05):

You can move across the country. You can move back across the country a week later. Like that's right. It's not hard, but it can be, or it's not easy, but it can be done. Even if it's hard.

Whitedove Gannon (11:13):

And you don't need permission.

Angie Colee (11:15):

You never need permission to do any of these things. It's your life. You need to consider the impact on the people around you.

Whitedove Gannon (11:22):


Angie Colee (11:23):

But it's still, that's a data point. Like the impact on this, the logistics of that, the cost of that, the timing of that, all of these things play into the bigger role of decision making. But none of those things is permission.

Whitedove Gannon (11:34):


Angie Colee (11:34):

Oh, I love it. Whitdove you get me! This is the whole thing I'm going for. Cause that was one of the subtle things that we were talking about before that I had internalized. And I think I've told this story before on the podcast, but one of my mentors literally spelled out to me, I feel like you're waiting for permission for someone to come along and anoint you to be an expert. And you don't actually need that. Like you can go out and help people knowing exactly what you know right now.

Whitedove Gannon (12:00):

That's right.

Angie Colee (12:00):

And you get better. The more you work with people and the more you discover what they're struggling with and how you can help, but you can start where you're at. Help the people that you can help get better. But just in case, just in case you are waiting for someone to give you permission, I hear by anoint you expert enough. And it was like, he took off the reigns. Like he just unleashed me and let me go. And it really took off because I, I had a lot of the similar head trash that you mentioned that I had to have this professional image. Um, and there were, there was a way that I needed people to think about my business for me to feel good about my business. And I think I got onto a call where I got super ranty one day and people leaned in. And that was my first indication of they wanted to work with a real person, not a business front. They actually liked me.

Whitedove Gannon (12:57):

You know, wait a minute that, that became a connecting point. Interesting. You know, just being you.

Angie Colee (13:02):

Yeah. Who knew. And then it turns out that, uh, when I was pretending to be the stuffy corporate person that I thought you needed to be, to be a successful business person, I wound up in stuffy, boring corporate meeting where I, you know, wanted to just curl up and take a nap in the corner. Cuz I was bored out of my fucking skull and if that's how you run business and it works for you again, no judgment. As you can tell, you can't see the video, but like my fiery red hair and my colorful tattoos and this Permission to Kick Ass podcast. Ass emphasis permission.

Whitedove Gannon (13:33):

Kick it.

Angie Colee (13:37):

Yeah. Kick all kinds of ass. That ain't my style. I really like, no, I wanna be dressed as the evil queen rocking out on a stage. True story did that at, at an actual business conference.

Whitedove Gannon (13:48):


Angie Colee (13:49):

And you can have fun with business. Oh that goes back to that awareness. Like you can build whatever kind of business you want. It starts with knowing what you want though.

Whitedove Gannon (13:59):

There's also, I want the audience to know that I still still have to break the rules. I still have to, to remind myself, I still find myself defaulting into an old paradigm or uh, an old, uh, thought process or in a moment where I'm just like, oh, this is overwhelming. Let me just go back to my old, you know, way of writing and, and it's very polished and you get this and you get that, you know, there's some stories that I share and I've started sharing more, but I still struggle with it. I don't want people to think that I've got this licked, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a pro at being, you know, out there calling it what it is. I do call it what it is. I have you know, indicated things inside of the industry that I work in that I don't like. And I don't like seeing and called attention to things that I think ought to, you know, be done better by my peers that do the same thing that I do. You know? And so in that, in that world, I'll say it, but at the same time, I'm like, oh, maybe I should tone it down. Maybe I shouldn't say that or I'll write it out. And then I'll be like, oh, delete, delete, but I'll wait, copy paste over here and then delete over here. So if I, if I, you know, come back to this, I'll, I'll still have all my badassery in, you know, written, written form. But at the same, I struggle with it. I don't want people to think that it's, you know, you achieve a moment where you're just you out there because there's a lot of desire, especially in our open space of social media and businesses becoming ever more on the digital platforms. There's so much more subject to scrutiny and there's so much more backlash and there's so much more judgment and you have to be okay with some of this and you have to ease into accepting the fact that, you know, this is what it's going to be. I, I have, uh, a post out there on my, my business page. And for the first time ever, just this last weekend, someone trolled it and said "a drunk." And I, I was like, oh, I'm just gonna delete it. I was like, no, actually I'm not. I replied back. And I said, how so? How, how you know? Because I was like, where do you get a drunk? One - I don't know you. Two - I understand you're trolling me. I get it. Three. Maybe you're mad at the industry and I, I triggered you or something. It it's not me necessarily. So I gave the person, the respondent an opportunity to give me more of their point of view as to why they said that comment instead of just deleting it. But a year ago, two years ago, I would've just deleted it because I'd be like, Ooh, that's negative. And why would they say that? Number one, I don't drink. I've been dry for over or two years. Personal decision reasons behind that. Not that I'm against it, but when, when you are, uh, closely involved with someone that suffers from addiction, there are decisions that I make, um, for my reasonings to that. So it, so that hit on another level too, that I am very seriously dry by choice, but I don't share that often. So again, on all those levels, I was just like, fascinating that you would actually troll me and say that, uh, not know me, all these things, but I wanted the person to respond. No response came. I know it's a troll but I left it there so that the rest of the public that sees this can actually see that it's not disregarding someone's interpretation of something it's asking for clarification because I know it's not me. That I'm pretty certain of, but truth be told I still questioned whether or not I should delete that.

Angie Colee (17:26):

Absolutely. I, I actually had, uh, one of the things that I was most scared about in putting out this podcast to begin with was I knew at some point I'd have to advertise it. To get it in front of more than just my small group of people, which is like my small group of people is amazing. And I also want more people to listen to, you know? So I knew I was gonna get trouble. I knew eventually. And of course the first time I ran ads, I set the parameters way too wide, cuz I'm thinking, Hey, I've had great business conversations with people in this age group and that demographic we're just gonna go super broad here and peg it on interest. I included a lot of angry, old white dudes in my first round of ads and they were angry, oh, what is this site? Posting memes and stuff like that. This is garbage. What are you doing on my feed? I had people private messaging me, get off my page. Okay. Zuckerberg. I found your incognitos disguise. So at like the moment has arrived where I'm facing the, the fear that I psyched myself up over launching this podcast about it's here, the trolls have come out and they're in full force and they're feeding on each other. And 14 year old troll, Angie came out to the party and was like, we're bumping my, uh, podcast up in the feed. Thanks for joining the party. And like they would bitch about something and I'd be like, Hey, just a small business owner, trying to do great things. Thanks for your help brother. Appreciate it. Just like you cannot make me mad today. There was one that got a little under my skin where he posts his podcast under my ad and goes, if you want a podcast that will actually help you check this one out. And so I wrote back and was like, Hey man, happy to help. Glad that you're doing this. Podcasting is hard. Welcome to the party. I'm gonna challenge you a little bit on the words of, uh, podcast that will actually help. Cuz I, I work really hard to make sure that mine is helpful. And of course he responds back with well, I'm not responsible for your interpretation. And I was like fucking delete. You use that lack of awareness in arguing with me. It, it could have been, Hey, I didn't mean to do that. Let me edit it or any other number of things. But like you came onto my ad to glom your podcast on for free. Not in my fucking house, bro.

Whitedove Gannon (19:31):

Nope. And you know what? Not a single person that would think that that's even remotely businesslike to do that do you even want to have you have follow you?

Angie Colee (19:41):

No, go with with it. Like I first and I immediately went to block, like I will give them just like you said, I'll give them a chance to talk. I'll ask for more information. I'll give them a chance and then after that it's gonna be, Nope, this is, this is my world. Don't come. I heard it somewhere. But I don't remember where don't come into my house and shit on the carpet.

Whitedove Gannon (19:59):

That's right.

Angie Colee (19:59):

That's not allowed.

Whitedove Gannon (20:01):

That's right. You can come into my house. But keep your shit outside.

Angie Colee (20:05):

Yeah, there's a bathroom for that. It's literally not the carpet. Don't do that. Uh, what kind of you human being are you and it's interest cuz you know, you mentioned to circle back to, to some of the unspoken industry norms. I work as a copywriter and it's still even 10 years later, there's a lot more women, but it's still a very male dominated industry. And nothing made that more clear than one of my friends today posted a screenshot on Facebook of a job listing for, for writers. And it was like, Hey, do you wanna beat the, hit the heat instead of beating your meat, apply here for a copy job. And I was like, what is wrong with you? First of all, this shows me that you have never, ever hired before in your life because you used a dirty sex joke to attract people so who are you attracting here? Uh, I love a good dirty sex joke, but I don't take your business seriously if that's how you are, are advertising for people to work. You have like no qualifications except for a Google form to apply, prepare for the onslaught dude. Like the tsunami is coming and you are about to get buried in shitty, shitty applications because you had a shitty, shitty job post. Um, and then we were just ranting about like, why, why does this still even happen? What is beating your meat have to do with finding a writer. I know that you think it's clever and fun, but why in this industry do we always default to sexual jokes?

Whitedove Gannon (21:23):

Exactly. Masculine, dominated sexual jokes is where it ends up being too, which I find is, um, interesting. I don't spend a lot of time on it, but interesting in the regard that you know, that that is a subject of jokes in amongst masculinity too. And like why, why are we going down that road? I mean, we, we don't talk about all the other things that are possible. We don't make jokes about weird, weird, random jokes about uh, vaginas or breasts or something, unless you're being crude on the other end, you know? So I'm just like, why is that even relevant in the conversation of hiring for a platform? And what is the platform writing for, you know, were who were they writing for? And is that even somebody I would want to work with.

Angie Colee (22:12):

It didn't even talk about what they wrote about that was like, that's why I was like prepare for the onslaught you gave no details, no qualifications, just your stupid little pun. I'm totally judging that that's a stupid pun. Don't use it, beat your beat and beat the heat, whatever.

Whitedove Gannon (22:25):

That's that's like somebody going out there, I was reading something, I'll leave, I'll leave details out. But someone's like, yeah, well you were bragging, you know that you were with over a hundred women, you know, and I'm just like, Hmm, interesting. I'm gonna watch this thread because I find it fascinating that this person finds a business angle in bragging about, you know, how they've turned a corner and they're no longer like that, but they've been with this amount of people and I'm just like, okay. And if you're, if you're demographic that you're shooting for in your business is slutty men, then maybe I mean.

Angie Colee (23:05):

They're out there and they need help. If you need to help, 'em go for it

Whitedove Gannon (23:10):

For real. But if you're, if you're trying to, you know, uh, appeal to married couples, I think I kind of think that's a different approach. Maybe, maybe, uh, maybe check your audience, don't be tone deaf. That's that's just be aware.

Angie Colee (23:27):

That's good to, you know, I think like the recurring theme of, of this episode, winds up being awareness, knowing who you're for and knowing what you want to do, who you're talking to. Because look, obviously I that, that same troll ad that I was scared of with all the angry old white men. Um, I think right in close proximity, I had posted something like I'm frustrated because my ads are getting randomly shut down by Facebook because of the word ass in the title. And I couldn't figure out at first like why some of them are going through and some of 'em are getting flagged as somebody like flagging me in their feed. I don't know what's going on. And so I just posted a little vent about this. Like I knew this was gonna be a challenge when I chose the name for this podcast. I knew that this was a possibility I'm still frustrated as hell that I can't figure out how to consistently get these ads approved. And one guy, you know, always taking me to school, these old angry white men, um, posts, "Simple Solution: Just change it to Permission to Kick Butt." Thanks for your fucking suggestion, bro. If I wanted to call it permission to kick butt, but I would've done that from the beginning and yeah, it's not really an easy, I didn't say all this to him. I was very polite, but I'm just thinking here in the background. Yeah. Okay. Easy solution for you. I just think a thought and then magically all of the links and the creative and all of the other things that have been written and had to happen behind the scenes to make this show live. Just magically change with no extra effort on my part. What is wrong with you?

Whitedove Gannon (24:55):

Or, or, yeah, just hire a VA for that. Yeah. You know, just hire a VA to make all those changes for you then. Right. It's not a change that you want. That's not the point. The point is, is that that's not a solution.

Angie Colee (25:08):

Yeah. That's not, it's not a realistic solution. It's not a solution that takes into consideration the bigger business picture at all. And I hate when people are like, just hire a VA to do it. Have you hired a VA? A good VA is ah, it's, it's maddening. It's a struggle.

Whitedove Gannon (25:26):

I, I spent, I've spent time in, um, you were talking about, uh, some of the unspoken things in the industry. I spend time in some of the influencers, worlds where, um, I teach the concepts in their workshops for them. I'm a contractor. And um, that's part of, uh, you know, spending time in front of hundreds of people to determine where my audience is in the long run, where, um, the, having a finger on the pulse of the digital product creation world and it's male dominated and we all know that there's a very common term of bro marketing out there. Yeah. We know that bro marketing exists. So in my investigative nature. I decided to back that actual term up and figure out where it came from. Hmm. And so I did, and then I ended up buying two and I'll probably buy his new book. Um, he wrote about it in 2017 and it wasn't intended to be, uh, the flashy lifestyle entrepreneur with the yacht and you know, a bunch of frat boys partying it up with pretty girls and bikinis and Lamborghini and Palm trees and mansions. Right. It actually didn't start there. The industry itself adopted it and created something out of that term. That was not the intention of it. It was, uh, it stood for bro boiler room operations. Uh, and it was, uh, the B-R-O stands for that but he was referencing in the book that it was about how, uh, stockbroker in, um, the early two thousands would sell something that didn't actually exist. And so he was referencing that being, you know, in the marketing world right now, we there's a lot of crap that gets sold that there's no, it's, it's all about the sale and nothing for the consumer after that, there's no learning, no, no improvement, no outcome, no anything. That's what bro marketing was intended to is what he meant by it. But I had to reference all the way back because there are people that get nasty, pissed off about that terminology because they have inherently adopted it. And, and it's not just, it's not gender specific. It's both sides of it. There's, there's shitty business owners in the digital world all over the place, but it does happen to be a male dominated world up on the, on the, um, the influencer side of it, as far as digital product creation goes . Um, but that being said, it, the whole purpose of what I stand for inside of this, that my industry is that I wanna call attention to creative outcomes in the digital world. They do exist, but we, and we, and I speak for me in my industry. We need to be more, we need to put more emphasis and importance to that than it is to clicking the bump order, upsell to 3, 4, 5 pages of up sell. Stop that shit, quit trying to operate over there. And let's just go for a single outcome that changes the fucking world. Because we have a ton of people out there that can do some really cool things and they lose momentum and they lose steam because they've just been pitched to so hard believing that it's possible. And there's nothing behind it.

Angie Colee (28:46):

Mm-hmm, well, and I think like, uh, it's it's so it feeds on itself that kind of practice, uh, that has more of a sales outcome and like how big can we win? How big can we score? Um, and, and it's fueled kind of this epidemic almost of shiny object syndrome and people chasing the high. And there's this really interesting feeling that I've noticed, especially with people that buy like in the online education space, they're buying a digital course, whatever that sometimes making the purchase feels almost as good, if not better than solving the problem. And the problem was why they went to buy this thing to begin with. But like, as soon as that money has left their bank and they've got the solution in, in hand, they're like, oh, relief. Well, like the work has just begun. You you've bought this, you bought the solution, you now have to implement it. The work is not over. And then it feeds kind of this vicious cycle of like, okay, well now I have to do the work. Now I'm disenchanted with this product. Now I haven't gotten results cuz I haven't put in the work from this product. Uh let me go by the next thing that makes me feel good.

Whitedove Gannon (29:48):

And there is that, but my industry absolutely needs to do better at being more focused on not just allowing them to, you know, vet your people that, you know, if you have something and it's a low ticket offer or a mid ticket offer, whatever, if you're utilizing that just for the sake of the funnel, that's a, that's not a two-way street. You're not desiring that person to change their world. So there needs to be more conversation, less on the pitch of it and the creation of it and more on what are we doing? What is the outcome for this? What do you want to change? How do you want people coming through this to change and then driving conversation in that direction. Instead of it just being massive conferences, selling these big packages and maybe a couple people buy the down, sell instead and they never fulfill it. Completion rates, completion rates are whatever on the digital, uh, education side of the digital world, because some people can go in there and get what they needed from half of it. And change the world that way. Some people need the whole thing and they do it that way, but it doesn't matter. We shouldn't judge it on completion rates. And if we have a low completion rate, then let's see what they are completing and tweak it and build something that is for them to be able to utilize that grow outcome. Instead, then don't make it this eight week transformation course when all people are really wanting is week two. You know what I mean? Let's be aware let's, you know, as industry leaders in my industry be aware, do the things, you know, be with integrity. I, I, I want business to be with integrity, be who you are, follow up with what it is you're doing and love the outcome. Because the minute you don't, you just created yourself a job.

Angie Colee (31:31):

Yeah. Give a damn about the person on the other end of the screen and their, their outcomes and their results and their transformation. There was one, um, like industry leading guru type that I worked with that sells information products. And I really loved his stance. We never pitched. It was we made an offer and we showed people how this could help them. And then it was, it was no pressure. Like we would push them outta their comfort zone cuz it was an investment right. Spendy products. And we would tell them, we've been selling this for 15 years. We're not going anywhere. So if now is not the time it's okay, go, go do what you need to do. Go take care of your family. We're not interested in taking money outta like food outta your mouth. We're not interested in you risking the car payment or the house payment or anything like that. That's not what we're about. We're about getting you into a space where you feel comfortable enough to take the action. That's gonna change your life. And if that's not now cool,

Whitedove Gannon (32:23):

We'll catch you on the flip side.

Angie Colee (32:24):

We'll catch you on the flip side. Absolutely. I think that, I definitely think that that is a, a key cuz there's a, a lot of focus on tactics and data without that human element. And I think that's exactly what you're talking about when it's like the, the endless order bumps and you know, designing the funnel without thinking about the people. Ugh. Totally. With you on all of that.

Whitedove Gannon (32:46):

Yeah. It's a big world. The digital world's a big, it's not going anywhere. Anytime soon, it's here to stay and in fact evolved from there.

Angie Colee (32:54):

Yeah. If anything, it got even bigger during 2020 when everybody stuck at home, but then people started to realize that online education is significant. There are experts out there that can help you learn critical skills that don't require you to go to university and put yourself tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. I love that. Like if you can go spend $2,000 on a course and gain skill that is going to earn you hundreds of thousands over the course of your lifetime, then that was a great investment. That was a fantastic investment. I've still got student loans that I'm paying off from my master's degree that I don't know that they were worth the degree of investment compared to some of the $2,000, $3,000, 5,000 courses that I've bought online.

Whitedove Gannon (33:38):

I've equally spent more now on my own self education in the online world than, um, than my college. For sure. And I welcome it. In fact, I mean, I, I, I wanna not knock the college experience as far as, uh, learning, you know, I mean it, my dad used to say, this is so, so cliche, but different strokes for different folks, right? Yes. You know, I mean different everybody's got their thing, but the value in the digital world does exist. And it is a, it is a widely accepted opportunity to learn and is only gotten better and is only gonna get better.

Angie Colee (34:20):

I think that's so important. And it's such a critical distinction. Like, look guys, if you're listening to this and you're thinking about buying a course from someone it's okay to wait, there are people out there that are using high pressure tactics that really wanna push you off the fence. But like, that's my favorite tactic. If I really want something, I will wait. And if it comes around next year, I know that they've got staying power and I've seen so the offer, so I know how much to save for this thing. So I'm not going into debt for it. So, but like if it's a flash in the pan and this is the first time we're offering it and we're never gonna offer again and you need to buy now and it's a lot of money, like no, no, I'm not here for that.

Whitedove Gannon (34:53):

Well, and if it evokes FOMO, give it a moment. Because impulse buying is not necessarilly seeing the outcome that's deliverable inside of purchasing that. So understand what's possible. Ask yourself if you're willing to go through the content and make the change that they're promising that is available there. You know, I mean sit with yourself and, and, and determine what it is that you're ultimately thinking that's going to bring to you and ultimately what it has brought to others and, and kind of give it a, you know, give it a once over. But if you're purchasing off a FOMO, it's a hard, that's a, there's gonna be, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Angie Colee (35:34):

And I think like this, the golden rule applies to everything that we're talking about. If this, if that kind of high pressure tactics makes you feel squishy, squeaky, ew. Why would you do that to your future customers as you're designing your business? You don't have to, you can make plenty of money out there being friendly. I've threatened to start zorbing retreats, just to see if I could sell tickets to zorbing retreat. Um, I don't need any high pressure for that because that's interesting. And the people that are for it are gonna join and if I sell nothing, I know, okay, well that was a shitty offer. Let me, let me go do something else. But yeah, you don't have to resort to the tactics in place of being an actual fucking human.

Whitedove Gannon (36:14):

Right. Be a business owner that's stands for integrity and uh, really wants to see a change in the world because then those are the people that you'll attract as your clients. Those are the people that will have a ripple effect of making a difference in other people's lives. But business is a catalyst for change. We can use it as a vehicle to make change, and God knows that this world needs change and we've got some brilliant minds out there that still have yet to be tapped fully

Angie Colee (36:41):

That's like the perfect note to end it on. That's beautiful. If you're listening to this and you have not gone out there after the business or you're struggling or wherever you're at, you're that brilliant untapped mind that we need, keep going. For the love of everything. Keep going. You will figure it out if you don't quit. So Whitedove tell us more about where we can find you online.

Whitedove Gannon (37:06):

You can find me under Whitedove Gannon on the social channels, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, um, literally my name, my father branded me when he named me Whitedove so it's pretty hard to not find. Um, and then my agency is Gsevencreative or you can get a sneak peek at me, the person more over on

Angie Colee (37:28):

Fantastic. I'll make sure that they have clickable links in all the show notes. This has been amazing. Like I think this is the rantiest recording I have done yet. So thank you for

Whitedove Gannon (37:37):

Off the rail.

Angie Colee (37:38):

Oh man. These soap box moments. Fantastic. Oh, so good. Thank you so much for being on the show and I will talk to you soon.

Angie Colee (37:49):

So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick Ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show or if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to That is all one word together, Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's Ass. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass.