Talking to my guest today, Daniel Lamb, is like a journey along a meandering path. We weren’t quite sure where we’re gonna end up but oh man did we cover some good stuff along the way. From how to really show up for clients, the value in our past failures, money mindset shifts and a whole lot in between… this is an episode you can’t miss.
Daniel’s entrepreneurial journey encompasses many of the standard obstacles entrepreneurs face. But what’s not standard is his ability to find the value in all of the experiences — the good, the bad, and even the panic attack-inducing moments. Daniel’s steady focus took his mindset from fear-based scarcity to consistent abundance (sounds woo, but it’s just the truth). To find out what you can do with your business when you put your client (and you) first, listen now.
Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:
This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!
Daniel Lamb is a lot of things— a musician, podcast host, a copywriter who helps marketing agencies and B2B brands create conversions within their funnels and the co-founder of two creative ventures: Artist Inclusive (an online community for artists) and gutwrench journal (an online literary magazine).
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Angie Colee (00:00:01):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. With me today is my friend, Daniel Lamb. Say hi.
Daniel Lamb (00:00:24):
Angie Colee (00:00:26):
You're already dipping into the tequila shot. I can tell. We were joking about that before we started recording, cuz each of us has a sampling of beverages here to help us facilitate the conversation. You have some tequila. Am I correct?
Daniel Lamb (00:00:42):
I do. I have some silver tequila and some fizzy water and a Coke. Um, and some old coffee from this morning.
Angie Colee (00:00:49):
Daniel Lamb (00:00:50):
Comfort is key.
Angie Colee (00:00:51):
It's a, smorgasboard having variety. It really helps the creativity. I think. So tell us a little bit more about what you do.
Daniel Lamb (00:01:00):
Absolutely. So I am a copy writer and, uh, a launch person, I guess you could say I work in the medical space for the most part. I work, um, I have an agency job where I work with pharma companies on the backend, uh, in their B2B marketing efforts to help bring, you know, new treatments to market. Um, specifically I work in the HIV space, so we help a drug maker help more people get care for HIV. And in my copywriting business, I also run a small agency and by agency, I mean it's me and sometimes some contractors and we work with, um, clients also in the medical space predominantly. Um, I've recently kind of culled down my, my client list because I've gotten so busy. So now I really focus on working with just a couple of clients. Um, and right now those are in the dental space and we're launching some events, some live events. Uh, so really like traditional like launch stuff. Launching live events and using funnels. And you know, the book funnels, lead funnels, things to push registrations for, for live events, mostly out there in the, the wild world of Las Vegas. Which is pretty cool and pretty fun. It's, it's some of it's new to me and some of it's old hat and it's always fun and it's always, uh, an opportunity to learn more.
Angie Colee (00:02:29):
I know that sounds like a whole lot, a couple different agencies, your own agency, you're working for another agency. How do you manage all that?
Daniel Lamb (00:02:36):
With planning, you know, constraints and, and knowing my limits really that has been the key is to, to learn, say no to people. I've become a lot more willing and comfortable saying no about my bandwidth over the last couple years, having learned that the hard way.
Angie Colee (00:02:57):
Oh yeah. I think that's totally critical part of the growth process as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, learning to say no, but not do it in a dickhead kind of way.
Daniel Lamb (00:03:08):
Angie Colee (00:03:09):
You know, like there's a way to say, no, I can't do that without making people feel like a piece of crap. Right.
Daniel Lamb (00:03:14):
Oh yeah, absolutely. And, and to me it comes down to just trying to be helpfull and be transparent. You know, if I said yes to you, you know, if you're the avatar here, if I say yes to you and I don't have time to work with you, I'm gonna give you a crappy product. I'm gonna give you bad customer service. It's basically gonna be, you know, you know, Kitchen Confidential nightmares, copywriter style. If I don't prioritize my flow in a way that puts the client first.
Angie Colee (00:03:41):
I love that.
Daniel Lamb (00:03:41):
It's not me putting my, my, my, my income first or my desire to look good in public first. But it's about putting the client first. And sometimes that means saying, you know what, I'm full, but you know what? I know some people who can help you out, here's some names let's have a call. Let's find out what you really need. And let me find out who I can refer you to because I know a lot of people and they all, you know, have something to bring to the table.
Angie Colee (00:04:05):
I love that. Cause I think especially on the newer end of the spectrum, people in the creative industries feel like, because somebody wants to pay me money, right? And this is a hard field to break into. If you get to paid to use your creativity. Yes. I get paid to write, I get paid to pay whatever that creative thing is. When somebody is offering you money, it feels like a sin to say, no. I gotta take all of the money while people are offering to throw money at me, otherwise I won't have the work, but by the same token, as you mentioned, that's almost like setting the relationship on fire in advance because you take them on, you know, you're overbooked and then you deliver something that's kind of half baked. You know, it's not really your best. They're disappointed. They're upset with you. And it's like, why did we do this again?
Daniel Lamb (00:04:53):
Yeah, it really opens up. I think the door to like shine, to light on scarcity mindset and, and fear. Because ultimately if I'm in a state of fear, I'm gonna grab everything I can, it's gonna be like grocery store on snow day. Everyone's grabbed up all the milk and bread and there's nothing left for everybody else. When in fact, you know, if we trust the process, there's plenty of supply chain in terms of clients and in terms of opportunity for all of us here?
Angie Colee (00:05:19):
Why is it that every snowstorm causes the bread, milk shortage? Like that's the only thing people can think of to weather a storm?
Daniel Lamb (00:05:27):
I know my, one of my favorite videos of all time is like this video of this woman and she's kind of country. And they, the reporter says, oh, ma'am how are you going to deal with this storm? And she says, just, you know, eat bread and desserts and get all fat and sassy. And like, to me, that's like, that's what I'm doing when it snows in Georgia. But, but it, you know, it's really funny. You mentioned that because like nothing else sells out, I guess it's like the other analogy is like COVID toilet paper, right?
Angie Colee (00:05:57):
People get weirdly attached to like one thing, if I don't have this, I am not going to survive.
Daniel Lamb (00:06:02):
Angie Colee (00:06:06):
Oh man. That's so great. We were, you know, we were talking a little bit before the call about something related to scarcity too, and that's that fear of having to walk away from a client relationship that's not working. So you said that you were fired from a particular client relationship. Is that what happened?
Daniel Lamb (00:06:27):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so this would be, let's rewind the clock a little bit here to spring of 2021. I had gotten a referral for a book funnel and, um, I was, you know, writing and designing this funnel with my team and, you know, through a series of missteps on my part, I kind of borkeded the, the project timeline and sort of displayed some inconsistency. Now from a value standpoint, what I learned was that the client valued consistency over everything that wasn't clear to me at the outside of the relationship, however, that consistency, that lack of consistency that I take full responsibility, um, you know, for caused me, you know, a lot of, a lot of difficulty and shame because I had to, you know, admit my fault to this client, suck it up, give him his money back, you know, a portion of the fees, despite the fact that we had basically finished the product project, but, you know, it was still, it's still needed some tinkering. And so that was a hard lesson to learn. And it was a big lump on the head. I mean, I, I definitely, you know, on the call with him as he was firing me, felt myself shutting down, you know, went into basically what I describe as a panic attack, you know, like I felt like I couldn't breathe in that moment. I had to turn my video off on zoom and, you know, like stand up and pace while he was talking at me. Uh, it was a difficult thing to process, but it was a really valuable experience too.
Angie Colee (00:08:14):
Interesting. So what made it valuable?
Daniel Lamb (00:08:18):
You know, the thing that made it valuable is that it was one of those things that happened that really forced me to take my own inventory. And to really take a hard look at what went wrong, how it went wrong and you know, what were my actions, you know, micro actions over the course of time that led to that, um, that moment that, you know, cathartic moment for him where he was like, okay, I gotta get rid of this vendor, this, this, this relationship isn't working for me. Um, so, and looking back, you know, the inconsistency for me was responses that were based in fear, really, you know? Hey, sorry, we're running late, we'll get this right over to you. And then not being able to follow up and deliver on that because again, like promises without foresight are essentially lies in the eyes of the client. And so it really is a bad look.
Angie Colee (00:09:19):
Ooh, that's, I'm writing that down and I'm like underlining it a couple of times because I, I feel very similarly. I try not to commit to specific dates unless I know I can meet them. And I'll usually tell somebody, you know, in the next few days, by the latest X, and I'm trying to give a little bit more time while all temp, while also tempering their expectations. So they don't feel like they're guessing, you know, if I just left it at, I'll get it to you in the next couple days, that's kind of open ended and everybody has a different interpretation of couples. Some are very literal with just two, two is a couple, uh, and some mean, you know, maybe closer to a week is a couple days. That's what I really meant But so I'll usually say, you know, I need a few more days and you can expect this no later than end of day Tuesday. Uh, and then that way they know that I'm on it.
Daniel Lamb (00:10:12):
Absolutely. And you know, that's, that's a really important thing to, I think to note for everybody is that when we, when we communicate and we use common places, like a couple we're making assumptions, right? About what other people think, feel and believe about anything, whether it's time or value or whatever. Um, it's really tough, I think, to, to have that level of trust and clarity when we're in a place of asynchronous communication when it's not face to face. And so that really makes it all the more important that we are clear.
Angie Colee (00:10:51):
I think that's such an important point to bring up too, because it's really easy to fall into assumptions, right? There's things that we don't think about in our daily operation. Like what's the definition of a couple, but it's critical, especially when interacting with another person to start to look at your communications and figure out where there might be some place that things could be misinterpreted. And like you pointed out, sometimes you can only figure this out after the fact, after something has gone wrong and go, oh shit, here's where it broke down. Here's how I can do better next time. But I think all of us have that point at some point in the business, like all of us have to torpedo a relationship, get fired by a client. I've had some pretty big skinned knees, uh, mud on the face experience. One of my, uh, biggest learning ones was I was hired to do a launch for somebody. I was still relatively new to the launch world at the time, but I really, I, I understood the strategy where I made the mistake was she signed me on to write this and then gave me somebody else's strategy and told me basically to follow their playbook and something in my gut was like, this doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel like it's gonna work quite that way, but she's a savvy business owner and clearly knows a lot. So I'm just gonna trust her instinct and I'm not gonna, and that was mistake number one of, I'm not gonna say anything, I'm just gonna do what she paid me to do. So at that point, you know, in retrospect, I failed to become my client's advocate and I didn't speak up into my field of expertise and let her make an informed choice. So that was mistake number one. Mistake number two was when I was trying to capture her voice and I'd been listening to podcasts and watching interviews and I'd read her book and I, I felt fairly steeped in it, but I just wasn't getting it right. And instead of getting on the phone and walking through these edits with her and having her explain to me what was happening in her head, when she was reading the words that I wrote, I just sunk down and got more and more pissed off that she wasn't just getting it. I'm pretty close. I don't understand what's disconnecting here. So that was mistake. Number two, me letting my ego and my pride get in the way of getting some good quality feedback from this person. And then open cart came and we made one sale for all that effort. And we were both just disspointed. Now I do have the view, you know, this is call it my Susie sunshine moments. But to me, one sale is a sign. That means that there is a market for this out there somewhere, but we're not quite there in terms of the messaging and, and the way this is structured. So sometimes one sale really is a sign that you just keep working toward it and you'll figure it out.
Daniel Lamb (00:13:37):
Angie Colee (00:13:38):
So after, and I had a similar reaction to you, like borderline panic attack, freaking out, I had to like take several walks, hot shower, calm myself down. And then I reached out to her and I was like, Hey, so share, share the back end stuff with me. Let's figure out if there's a clear drop off point that we could modify. I never heard from her again. And that was like one of the biggest gut punches ever. Like she lost faith in me in all those little mistakes that I made along the way. And so when I came back and tried to salvage my mistakes, it was too late and she was already frustrated and done. And I was like, Ugh, oh my gosh. If you're out there and you know who you are and you're listening to me, I'm sorry.
Daniel Lamb (00:14:23):
Yeah. And ditto, if, if, uh, if you're my guy and you you're hearing this, uh, I think you and I have gone back and forth on this enough since then that, you know, but, um, my sincere regrets and know this, I have become much more consistent with the people I work with.
Angie Colee (00:14:39):
Oh man. But I mean, I think that's one of the biggest stopping points in entrepreneurship, especially in creative stuff too. Where so much of this comes down to a bit of personal preference mixed in with kind of the common wisdom and strategy. Um, is really just learning how to have these productive conversations and open it up for differences of opinions and open it up for communication so that you can actually work together. But that's like a skillset that has to happen almost like the failure is almost necessary. And I think every creative service provider I know has had a major relationship implosion like this
Daniel Lamb (00:15:24):
Yeah. You know, I, I value it and I will say that if I could go back, I would love to say, you know what? I righted that situation. I saw it coming and did it, you know, the right way the first time. But that said, you can't buy the insight that you win from failure. It's not on sale.
Angie Colee (00:15:49):
You can't pick that up in a handy dandy PDF.
Daniel Lamb (00:15:51):
No, that's one of the PDFs that dies in your downloads folder cuz you never open it.
Angie Colee (00:15:57):
Daniel Lamb (00:15:57):
Because your ego won't let you open it.
Angie Colee (00:15:59):
Uncomfortable truth file disregard. But you know that this whole fear of like, I'm gonna screw it up. I'm gonna have a black mark on my record. Cuz that was one thing to it. I was like really attached. I can't fail because this is gonna follow me around like a cloud following around Charlie Brown, you know, and just, just rain on me. And everybody's gonna know that I suck. If I fail at this one thing, that's not actually what happens in business though. Like you use it to get better and maybe that one person vents to a couple people and there's a pocket of people out there that think I suck, but that's okay, cuz I'm gonna do better with the next one. And the next one. And eventually I'm gonna do so much good work that the pocket of people that think I'm great is much bigger than the ti the tiny pocket of people that think I suck. And you know, there's always gonna be people that think I suck
Daniel Lamb (00:16:50):
Yeah. I think that's the other thing too, is that you, you know, you've come made it a little bit when you start to get some haters out there. Mm it's. One thing to be, to be disappointed with the service you received. And it's another thing to just be a hater
Angie Colee (00:17:07):
It truly is. I think the haters are usually projecting some sort of unhappiness or dissatisfaction with their own life and situation onto you and thinking that like you have to conform to something that they're feeling in order for them to feel better and that's not true.
Daniel Lamb (00:17:21):
Yeah. It's like, I'm not happy. So you can't be happy either. I'm trying to entrap you here into my emotional toxicity.
Angie Colee (00:17:29):
That was, but when I first advertised the podcast, which I delayed for so long and even starting podcast, because I was scared of what the haters would say, cuz I knew I'd eventually have some and I have friends all across the age spectrum from teens to sixties and seventies and beyond. So of course I did that stupid thing where I'm not really thinking like a marketer and I'm like, we'll just set the age parameters from like 25 to 65, fantastic, wrong. Uh, 60 plus year old white men really do not like my ads or my style or, or pretty much anything about me. But the funny thing is instead of marking me as spam or, or thing that would've actually gotten my ads out of their feed, they just commented with like spam. What the hell is this shit like angry, angry commentary,.
Daniel Lamb (00:18:18):
Angie Colee (00:18:19):
Which bumped me up in the algorithm, which was fantastic. And I just, I had this visual in my head of these angry old men sitting alone in the living room when a TV comes on, just screaming at the TV spam! Change the fucking channel, yo!
Daniel Lamb (00:18:35):
Fake news, lame stream media.
Angie Colee (00:18:39):
So yeah, 14 year old troll, Angie came out and started individually replying to all of them and being like, Hey, just a small business, trying to do great things. Thanks for bumping me up in the feed. And then eventually my friends jumped in and
Daniel Lamb (00:18:51):
Chase the trolls back down to the bridge.
Angie Colee (00:18:53):
Yeah. And then I reset my ad parameters for the next one, but that was a great learning experience.
Daniel Lamb (00:18:59):
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Like, you know, I, I have a podcast too and we, we launched a Facebook group to go along with it and it's really just an open free group and people immediately like started talking, talking some trash about one of the people who was involved like behind their back and was like call calling us like shysters and cash grabbers and stuff. And I'm like, first of all, we haven't sold anything to anybody. Second of all, how interesting that you must feel that way? What gave you that impression, you know,
Angie Colee (00:19:34):
Shysters and cash grabbers when you haven't made a sale, were, did they share any further thought or were they just there to vent?
Daniel Lamb (00:19:41):
Um, honestly this was something that like got communicated to my business partner through her husband who had invited some people to the Facebook group. And like they like flagged him to his employer. It was this whole big, stupid thing. It ne it didn't pan out to be anything big or, you know, a problem. But, but someone saw someone saw this community growing up from the ground and decided to say, this is just someone tried to sell something and make making it into making into a negative, um, painting it in a negative light, which is understandable, I guess, in the sense that, you know, trolls are always gonna troll. People are always gonna find something to hate on. But, uh, but when I heard about that, my initial gut reaction was, you know, what F those people, they can, they can go, uh, row, row down, um, row down to the other place.
Angie Colee (00:20:46):
Yeah. Someday when I have the merch store is like, I got a hater. I made it.
Daniel Lamb (00:20:53):
Yeah. I feel like I need a t-shirt that says to ask me about my haters
Angie Colee (00:20:56):
Or like a, a Sally field meme. That's you hate me. You really hate me. Like, if you don't have any haters out there, I don't know if you trying hard enough to succeed in your business, they, you know, you, you're gonna step on some toes in saying things that you say in thinking the way that you think and processing the way that you process and when it's with people that you respect that can challenge you to think beyond your mindset and grow. I will say that I was an extremely judgmental, not patient person growing up. Didn't have much of a sense of humor, which would probably surprise people that know me cuz I'm constantly cracking jokes. But, um, I I've met people along the way that called me on that in such a way that it forced me to grow where I've also met people along the way that called me on it in a, that made me feel small and I wound up ditching them instead of growing and that's just, I think part of the process of learning who you are and becoming, I don't know. What do you think about that?
Daniel Lamb (00:21:59):
You know, I think, I think it's a, I think it's an evolutionary process. Because I, I identify with that growing up, I was always kind of a, sort of an outlier, like a non nonconformist. Like I didn't wanna be a part of your crew, you know, I'm like, I just wanna like hang out and like listen to metal and like play my guitar and like be alone and not hang out and not go to your stupid prayer group or go to your pep rallies and your football games. You know, none of that stuff appealed to me. So like growing up, I, I think like I, I put on the outfit of somebody who was, um, a contrarian just because my tastes were different. Um, but, but then to that other point of getting like, you know, called out for those things, you know, I think it cut one of two ways. If it was somebody in my family, I would just be like, why don't you leave me alone? Don't you have anything better to do than comment on my choices in life. Ye dummy. Um, but you know, if it were in a public space, you know, I would feel that, that, uh, that shrinking back down of like, you know, what's wrong with me that I, you know, why am I a spectacle? Um, and you know, feeling small, um mm. But as I've aged, I've just learned to not give a shit. You know, and now it's just not really that concerning to me.
Angie Colee (00:23:26):
There's a certain amount of don't give a damn that is required in adulting, I think.
Daniel Lamb (00:23:33):
Yeah. It's just too expensive to care energetically for me.
Angie Colee (00:23:37):
And no matter what, if you're living your life in service of others, trying to make other people happy, okay, I've done everything perfect. And I've made person a over here super thrilled, and I've pissed off person B in the process of living up to what person a expects, and then person C doesn't really care. But as soon as I change to impress person B, they're gonna be off. So it's like, there's no point in living to try and make everybody else around you happy. They're never going to be happy. So trust that your, your core group of friends and family, those people that you have invited to join you in the privilege of being part of your life, get you for who you are, understand your intentions, even when you put your foot in it. Cuz trust me, I put my fucking foot in it a lot. I have a big mouth. I say things without thinking my best friend jokes that, uh, if I have a filter between my brain and my mouth, it's set to the size of small dog. So everything, the size of a small dog is getting through that filter. With it is not slowing down at all. Um, I put my foot in it and then I see people's faces change and I go, oh shit, oh shit. I said something wrong just then first of all, I apologize. I'm really sorry. I'm gonna do better next time. And then we move on.
Daniel Lamb (00:24:58):
I think, and I, I think I have the opposite end of that or the opposite version of that, which is like, you know, reserves to a fault in a lot of, in a lot of scenarios, um, where I'll be thinking all the thoughts and having all the opinions. But I never say it
Angie Colee (00:25:14):
That you probably get into a little bit less trouble than I do with that approach.
Daniel Lamb (00:25:22):
Yeah. I would say less trouble with other people, but plenty of getting, getting into plenty of, but getting into plenty of trouble with myself for not speaking out when something, uh, rubs me the wrong way or when I just think something needs to be said.
Angie Colee (00:25:42):
Ooh. Interesting. Okay. So that's a shiny thread that I would like to follow. Are you open to pursuing this line of, of thinking?
Daniel Lamb (00:25:48):
Angie Colee (00:25:49):
Okay. So tell me more about that. Like being frustrated about not speaking up about something that should be said.
Daniel Lamb (00:25:59):
Yeah. I would say mostly it comes up in, in group dynamics. You know, one on one I'm very candid with people but when there's a group dynamic happening, I really don't wanna draw attention to myself. Like in, in a group where there's an established power dynamic and an established sort of like pecking order. Um, I think that kind of goes back to that initial sort of like leave me alone mentality of growing up as a, you know, a kid with black t-shirts and you know, metal music, uh, there's a social anxiety behind it for sure. You know,
Angie Colee (00:26:41):
It's interest because we have a lot more in common that it might appear. So I have always been a metalhead. You have seen me in person we've met and hung out and had drinks I'm covered in tattoos. Um, obviously I dropped the F bomb fairly frequently. Uh, and it seems like we almost processed things in different ways where mine was to get more outgoing, to attract more people to kind of become the center of attention. And yours was to withdraw. Is that accurate?
Daniel Lamb (00:27:12):
Yeah, I would, I would identify as very introverted in the, in social situations. Um, you know, with music, I guess, you know, for me as a, as a musician, I I've always been able to behind the guitar stand behind the music and not necessarily have to be myself in those situations, but I get to be a persona, you know, playing a role. Uh, so it definitely opens up, I think, an opportunity to show up in a different way, but it, it can also be, uh, armoring you know, or a mask
Angie Colee (00:27:47):
I love that you brought that up, the stepping into a persona on stage too, cuz I've been a performer on stage two. I've never really had a persona to step into, but that's an idea that I really love and would want to explore. So is that you have like an avatar for your persona or your stage persona?
Daniel Lamb (00:28:10):
Yeah, I would say so. And I, and I think it's also the same kind of persona that I bring into like work environments and stuff where people are looking to me as some sort of authority on a topic. It's just, it's more about, I think about posture, language and energy and like the way I show up. um, because I guess, you know, my sort of resting, resting posture is very like sort of closed body language, but my performance posture and like, if I'm gonna speak or I'm gonna teach or I'm gonna do anything, it's usually I'm standing and I'm open and you know, making myself bigger, not smaller, you know? Um, but, uh, yeah, it, it really, it really is a contrast. And one I've noticed that a lot, um, having started to do more work around like sales training and speaking and stuff, because really a lot of it is about body language and leaning in and, you know, creating and creating those dynamics to other people. Um, but for me it is still a persona it's like turning it on and turning it off, you know, like, it's not, it's still not natural. I know how to do it. I can do it. I think I'm getting better at it. Um, but, uh, but it is still, it's still strange in the sense of like, um, there's different. There are multiple versions of me or multiple realities. I don't know. Not to get into the Mandela effect in, you know, parallel universes, but, you know, there are these multiple truths of like who I can be in a given situation.
Angie Colee (00:29:42):
I've thought about that in the past too. Just there, there are people who have come across me and they've heard one thing that I've said in public at an event, and they've formed a certain opinion of who I am as a person. Then there are people that have known me for 20 years and they know all of the fears and anxieties that pop up behind the loud brash personality and they have a completely different perspective. And in between those two points, there are people that have had infinite different exposures to me at any given level on a good day, on a bad day in person, on an event when I'm already feeling some sort of way from dealing with the assholes, at, wherever I happen to be I'm frustrated. So I'm reacting poorly and all of those people have some version of the truth of me, but not the entire truth. And I've always found that really interesting that no matter how hard I try to like shape and control that image, there's still like 5,000 Angie's out there.
Daniel Lamb (00:30:39):
Hundred percent, you know, the other, the other version of this that I've heard, uh, it's like a parable from Buddhism, which is there are five blind monks and they're all standing around in elephant and they're touching the elephant in different places. One's touching the, the nose or the trunk of the elephant. The other one is holding the ear. It's very thin. One's, you know, touching the hoof and it's very hard and one's touching the tail and it's all ratty and little and weird. And, uh, one's touching the side. Right. And it's big and vast. And they're all arguing about what an elephant is like, you know, because they have this one dimensional experience of that elephant and they're all right. They're all correct in their, in their description, but they're all incorrect because they're only seeing one or exp experiencing in this case, one side of the elephant. And I think that this is, this is true for, for people and personality as well. Like, you know, like you see me on a bad day, like, you know, God forbid I, you know, cuss somebody out or like lose my calm versus somebody who knows me from a kid versus, you know, what my wife thinks about me. Those are all very different descriptions of this person that I show up as you know, it's very cool. Very interesting.
Angie Colee (00:31:52):
I think it's brilliant that you brought that up, cuz that's another thing that I've spent some time thinking about too, this perception of reality, especially in kind of as charged politically as things have been lately and I'm not gonna go into politics. So don't worry about that. But you know, I, I've heard thrown about like, there's your side, there's their side and there's the truth. Like actually there's about a hundred more sides than that.
Daniel Lamb (00:32:16):
Yeah. It's really like an infinity mirror where you just see all sorts of fractionated like versions because you, it's impossible to get down to fundamentals when there's a lot of distortion happening.
Angie Colee (00:32:29):
Oh yeah. And everybody's standing at a everybody's blind and everybody's standing at a different section of the elephant somebody's sitting on top of it and they're all arguing about what's. Right. But nobody can see the full picture.
Daniel Lamb (00:32:40):
Yeah. And that's, that's why, that's why bias is so important to understand.
Angie Colee (00:32:45):
Mm, tell me more about that.
Daniel Lamb (00:32:48):
I think when, when we look at things like one of the things that I'm really interested in is, is like sort of the angry commentary between generations of people. Mm. Like the okay boomer thing versus millennials are ruining everything versus zoomers are just weird. We don't get them. Like, you know, uh, the, the next generation, whatever it is, um, you know, generation alpha, the people who've been born the last 15 years, uh, we're all interacting with our version of truth from the standpoint of our experience set. So a boomer, someone who was born, you know, after, you know, World War II and has having grown up in the fifties, sixties, seventies, you know, versus gen X versus millennial versus whatever, we've all live through different circumstances. We all have different points of view. So it's impossible. I think for one to fully understand the other, it's just not, you can't replicate given circumstances. You can't go back in time. If you can't be born into a world of technology, if you, you grew up with, with rotary phones, like those, those given circumstances, this sort of experiential set that we all show up with is it's not mutable other than through communication and, and, and an attempt to understand, but you know what I mean? Like these biases are created it through circumstance and, and there's so many other layers to that, you know, it's not just generational. It could be, you know, class economics, race, you know, nationality. There's so many different filters or levels of consciousness and awareness that make us who we are that, you know, to say, I totally get, you would be really an inappropriate for me to say, because I mean, like, we may have so many things in common, but we have so many things that are unique about ourselves that no one else really ever fully grasps
Angie Colee (00:34:54):
I think, you know, that ties in perfectly to what we were talking about earlier with the assumptions that we make. Right. Because we're coming in with our background, our experiences is our little stories that we've picked up along the way from society and from our friends and family and the people around us don't have the same stories and they don't have the same perspective. And I've laughed before cuz of course they can't see me since we're, we're not sharing the video here, but you and I are looking at each other. Sometimes I feel like somebody's grown, grabbing my head and turning it just like 15 degrees to the left. And I'm like, oh shit, I didn't see any of that before. Wow. Now my world is that much bigger. So I, I don't know, going from this kind of tunnel vision that I had growing up, cuz I was, you know, I'm a Southern poor white girl from Texas with a rural background and certain prejudices that I have since grown out of largely. I like to believe still working on it. Um, certain assumptions and, and what disturbed me about my upbringing was just this notion of us and them, which I think is still very prevalent, but like anybody that had a very different life circumstance for me, wasn't somebody that I really wanted to associate back then. Whereas these days people, I, I actively seek out people from diverse backgrounds from all around the world. I, I like to think that I have friends all around the world and I know my friend from New Zealand the other day said he listened to the podcast and I was like, what?
Daniel Lamb (00:36:25):
Yeah. Well, one of your friends from California was listening to your podcast today. I was just chatting with Matt Hall on slack earlier and he said to say, hi.
Angie Colee (00:36:35):
Oh, oh, hi, Matt.
Daniel Lamb (00:36:35):
Literally, literally like an hour ago. So we, we do have friends all over the world.
Angie Colee (00:36:40):
That's, you know, that I think makes this an even more beautiful time to be alive despite all of the stresses and the amplification of the, of the voices and the anger. I think when I set out on the road, there was a lot of fear, especially from my family, not only for, for COVID and pandemic and what not, but just this idea of if I go to different places, especially traveling solo as a woman, that there's gonna be, you know, some dangerous or some risky situations, but I've in fact found the opposite aside from one situation in Memphis where I was convinced my closet was haunted. And then I heard a lot of loud noises. A lot out of loud noises next door that had me briefly thinking that, you know, there was a robbery in process or something. Um, it turned out to be children being very loud. And I don't know how anything didn't get broken in there, cuz it was very, very loud. But yeah, that night I thought I might die. Um, but it was children and ghosts in the closet. Aside from that one spooky night, everybody I have met along the way has been fantastic. We find something to bond over, whether it's find something local to do or jump off of things or climb things, cuz I've got certain adventure buddies that like to do that to let's go eat all the food. That's how you and I hooked up in Atlanta. We met up with a group of other foodies
Daniel Lamb (00:38:01):
Have foodie copywriters here. That was fun.
Angie Colee (00:38:03):
Foodie copywriters. I still wish I had gone with my initial instinct, which was what you had ordered. I ordered this like squid ink pasta, but what you ordered was phenomenal
Daniel Lamb (00:38:12):
I think I got, what did I get? I don't remember what it was now, but it was good. I know.
Angie Colee (00:38:19):
Some sort of steak thing I think.
Daniel Lamb (00:38:20):
Oh yeah. It was like steak medallions and like some like fingerling potatoes or something.
Angie Colee (00:38:25):
I'm gonna have to go to dinner after this
Daniel Lamb (00:38:28):
Same. I'm hungry. I'm officially hungry. I might need, you know what, I might need to go get takeout from, uh, Musts and Turners, AKA Eleanor. I think you went there when you were here.
Angie Colee (00:38:39):
I did. Oh, that place it, it was just so delightful. I find a lot of joy in absurd things. And I really love the idea of walking in and asking somebody if I can walk into their refrigerator, like, Hey, is Eleanor here? And then somebody opens up a refrigerator door and it's not a refrigerator. It's a speakeasy. Woohoo. I love that.
Daniel Lamb (00:39:02):
Oh, that's pretty fun. That is pretty fun.
Angie Colee (00:39:04):
I love that. And I mean to get back to kind of the original rant, which I love these shiny circular paths that we follow, um, like, there's a certain kind of magic in deliberately exposing yourself to somebody that may or may not agree with you to approaching something with, I don't wanna say open mind cuz that sounds a little bit cliche, but like a willingness right? To just talk to another person.
Daniel Lamb (00:39:30):
Yeah. I would say I don't like the word open-minded either. Cuz I hate cliches. I'm just like you fucking dummy but I do like the idea of curiosity.
Angie Colee (00:39:40):
Daniel Lamb (00:39:40):
Like I'm just curious to know like what somebody believes, how they operate, what they think as a copywriter, that's kind of, my job is to kind of figure those things out and to be interested
Angie Colee (00:39:51):
Oh, I like that to be interested versus interesting, which I think a lot of people get kind of wrong in the TikTok era. Look at me, look at me.
Daniel Lamb (00:40:01):
Which is interesting in and of itself because I think, you know, Dale, Carnegie's like advice to be the most interesting person in the room. Just ask the questions and shut up. You know, I mean like that's, it's pretty simple, but it really is just being interested
Angie Colee (00:40:19):
And having, uh, I think that's what I love the most about these travels is the opportunity to connect with so many different people and hear so many different, interesting things from the people. Oh, excuse me. And then Memphis was an interesting place. I gotta tell you, I don't know why I'm going on this side, but bear with me for a second. Cuz one of my favorite stories that I still haven't written about yet was how I wound up at the bass pro pyramid. I don't know if you know, but in Memphis there is literally a giant pyramid that is a bass pro shop and there's a hotel inside and everything. It's fantastic.
Daniel Lamb (00:40:56):
So Bass Pro Shop has a hotel pyramid and it's not a pyramid scheme, but an actual pyramid.
Angie Colee (00:41:01):
It is an actual giant glass pyramid. That is very much visible. Yes.
Daniel Lamb (00:41:06):
Like the Louvre
Angie Colee (00:41:07):
Yep. It's got some lining and stuff on the inside. I think it used to be a professional sports arena of some sort.
Daniel Lamb (00:41:15):
That sounds about right.
Angie Colee (00:41:16):
Up the center is this giant blue like glass encased elevator. You go up to the top of the rooftop bar. You could have some cocktails at the top of this, this Bass Pro pyramid looking at the sunset over the Mississippi river and going up the elevator, you know, this is that perspective story is what I'm getting at. I remember hearing a recording from either the owner or the investor in this particular bass pro. And he was like, well, so me and buddy, we were trying to decide whether we should invest in this, uh, pyramid, turn it into a bass pro shop. And we really, we just couldn't decide. So, uh, we decided we were gonna go fishing, if one of us caught a 30 pound fish, Wes gonna turn this into a bass pro shop and long story short, we caught a 30 pound fish. So we turned this pyramid into a bass pro shop and that's literally the story that's playing as you're going up the elevator. And like I told you, I take delight in the absurd.
Daniel Lamb (00:42:13):
That is pretty absurd.
Angie Colee (00:42:14):
I think it's so absurd and so interesting that there is a reality out there where a 30 pound fish is the difference between an investment in a pyramid and not investing in a pyramid
Daniel Lamb (00:42:25):
That's kind of like, um, the, the, the, the billionaires $1 wager and trading spaces with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroy. Oh, that's one of my favorites. Like they decide to ruin people's lives for a dollar just to see if they can like, I mean, that's obviously like evil Robert Barry and Robert Barry and colonialist there, but like on the other side of the coin, how absurd and how delightfully absurd, uh, it makes for good entertainment. But, but then when you see it in reality, like, oh, we decided if we caught ourselves a big old bass, a 30 pounder, we's gonna get ourselves a pyramid.
Angie Colee (00:42:59):
Uh, it's fascinating. It's endlessly fascinating. And it, that, that helps me to recognize, you know, going back to what we were talking about with biases. One that I have really struggled with mindly all my life is money. Because growing up the, you know, the eldest of three kids with a single mom, I had certain ideas about money and more specifically people that have money were going to judge all those people for having the money that I wish I had, you know, that I'm having to undo as a business owner all those years later and learn how to earn more, charge, more attract people that can pay the kinds of fees that I want to make without the associated guilt of becoming a rich person,
Daniel Lamb (00:43:46):
Which is wow.
Angie Colee (00:43:47):
It's a very interesting journey.
Daniel Lamb (00:43:49):
You're speaking to my inner child right now who, you know, grew up in a double wide in the woods on a dirt road, you know, raised by grandparents cuz mom and dad were elsewhere, uh, you know, with siblings and, you know, Kmart clothes, it really does resonate. And there is a lot of, a lot of money mindset stuff that I'm still trying to work my way through. Um,
Angie Colee (00:44:13):
Awareness is key, right? Yeah. Cause I won't say that. I always it right. But I will give myself a little bit of credit for having early on in the business game, this insight of, okay, I know I want to write what kind of writing is gonna pay the bills and what do I enjoy doing kind of within that. And that's how I initially gravitated towards screenwriting, but then ultimately got laid off from that and then fell into copywriting by accident was like, oh, Hey, this is kind of similar to what I was doing in screenwriting. Other than it's not appearing on a, you know, TV screen and becoming HBO's next big hit. It's not off table. Hopefully it'll still happen someday. But it, it was a form of writing where I could use the talents and the skills that I had and be creative and get paid really well. And I think recognizing that is, is, was a big step in my evolution toward I'm not rich now, not by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being rich. I would like to be rich someday. And I think it'll allow me to be even more generous with my time. And with my funny, my funny with my money. Funny money.
Daniel Lamb (00:45:23):
Well, comedians are generous with their funny and they get paid for that.
Angie Colee (00:45:27):
That's true. That is very true. We can be generous with our funny and with our money. There's no reason to be stingy with any of it
Daniel Lamb (00:45:35):
A hundred percent because you know, back to the beginning of like, we're just starting out, you know, there, the idea of abundance is, is weird. If you grow up poor, especially if you grow up poor in Southern, because there's a whole mindset about hard work produces results. You know, and usually that's physical hard work and lots of hours and lots of hating your life, hating your work to get there. But I don't really know anybody who has found happiness, who, who has actually made it through the, at, through that means of nose to the grindstone, you know, work till you die. And eventually you'll be happy. Like that's not reality. That is, that is a mindset is a poverty mindset or, or, or, or a scarcity mindset. And it comes from the need to survive. I understand it I totally understand it. Cause I've had had, you know, before I was a copywriter the best year I think I ever had was like $28,000.
Angie Colee (00:46:40):
Daniel Lamb (00:46:40):
You know? Um, and so I understand what it is to struggle and uh, you know, I've, I've, I'm, you know, on a trajectory to maybe, you know, in the next couple years, 10 X that worst year, um, you know, and the balance and the, the contrast there is really, you know, I don't hate what I do. And I don't work till I'm dead. Yeah. And don't put my nose to the grindstone because that doesn't get me the result that I'm looking for.
Angie Colee (00:47:08):
And I would hope, like, I think that's the, if, if, if I have a bigger me in life, I was telling my mastermind group about this earlier this morning, cuz they, they were challenging me on, on something that I was presenting them with. Cuz I wanted to offer a new consulting offer and they were like, who do you help? And I, you know, gave them kind of this bland sterilized version of who I could help with consulting. And they were like, where did Angie go? And I'm like, what are you talking about? He said, just a second ago you were talking about like how your life's mission is to live the shit out of this one and only precious life you have where is that kind of passion for speaking to these people? And I was like, oh shit. Right. Okay. They said, okay, tell us again, who do you help? I was like, I help people who don't have enough life in their lives. I believe business is a way to do some massive fucking good in the world while also helping you live the kind of life that you want to live, whether that's, I mean, Hey, some people love working 80, 90, a hundred hours a week. They, they have that work identity and that's fine. I like to work. And I also like to eat and I also like to sing and I also like to shoot shit the with my friends. So I'm gonna build in plenty of space around that and live the shit out of this life. That's that's what I'm working toward.
Daniel Lamb (00:48:27):
Yeah. I love that. And that's kind of, I, I really don't like the idea of, you know, having like new year's resolutions and we're recording this in January and like, you know, this or the idea of like, you know, having such like specific goals that I have to hit this number this year or do these things. But what I will say is that like for me, like one of the things that kind of came up, you know, as I was thinking about setting my intentions and like sort of imagining the year I wanna have is that I don't wanna be so concerned with trying so hard. Um, to get to a goal, you know, I do wanna remember to live the shit out my life as well. So it's just like, otherwise, why am I doing any of this? What's the point.
Angie Colee (00:49:15):
Exactly. What's the point? And it it's interesting to me cuz I think when I first started out going back to that kind of the poor mentality, I was very hesitant to spend on anything for my business. Because it was like, will I get a return on my investment? And I see that a lot now with, because getting entrepreneurs, I can't invest in this unless I know I'm gonna get a return. I've thankfully grown to the point in, in my entrepreneurial journey where I understand that one good executable idea from any investment I make, usually pays for that investment, whether it's $25,000 or $25. And so recently I made an, an investment in like a $300 financial course and the one I good idea I got out of there, I think is really gonna be the key to helping me undo a lot of the, the scarcity mindset I have, which was he said, and this, this was a money mindset course. So this will, this will be relevant. But he said, you can only cut back to a certain point, but amount that you could potentially make is infinite.
Daniel Lamb (00:50:15):
Yep. A hundred percent.
Angie Colee (00:50:16):
And that was like, I felt like somebody reached through the screen and slapped me in the face. Like I realized how every time, you know, business slows down or if a client I don't get along or promo doesn't go well, but I go right back to poor kid mode and I wanna, I'm gonna cut spending, I'm gonna save my money. I'm gonna hoard all my assets. I'm gonna build up a wall around me and, and I'm going to wait until it's safe to come out again.
Daniel Lamb (00:50:38):
Yeah. What and what a Mirage that is, right? The concept, the illusion of safety, right. That anything is ever truly safe or that it, anything is ever truly solid. Like that's a lie. You know, some shit could go down and wipe it all out, you know, it, it could happen. And so like, we get into these weird little, you know, Fox holes with our mindset where we're like, you know, clinging to our sense of safety, to feel better, to feel okay. And you know, like if your fists are closed, you can't receive anything.
Angie Colee (00:51:12):
Oh, I love that.
Daniel Lamb (00:51:13):
You know what, I mean?
Angie Colee (00:51:14):
I love that so much. And I, I mean, I totally agree with you on the new year's resolutions things too. Like, even though I, I have this idea fresh in my head, the amounts that you could potentially make is infinite. Okay, I'm on board with this. I'm still not gonna set a number this year. I have a target I'd like to hit, but if I get anywhere close to it, I'll be happy. Instead, what I'm focusing on this year are my words. And I have two words, commitments and joy and commitment comes from doing the hard work that, you know, produces results even when you're not seeing results, which is why I'm trying not to tie to that number that we talked about. Um, but commit to doing the work, to trusting the process and to showing up and to doing it with as much joy as humanly possible. And then we'll just see how this year turns out.
Daniel Lamb (00:52:01):
You know, a couple of my words, I, I love that, cuz I think that commitment is, is one of 'em. Um, but I think it's, it's also for me it's consistency. Um, for me, one of the things that I struggle with is, um, ADD ADHD. And so like consistency is tough and consistency is, is simultaneously the, the problem itself and the antidote, you it's the problem that inconsistency created, you know, challenges and even failures in 2020, 2021, but the antidote is consistency. And the more that I lean into being consistent, the more that, that infinite possibility opens up, you know, like, how much can I make? I don't know. I just, you know, I just gotta, um, a performance contract with a, a new client and I've kind of consolidated my business down and I thought I'd make maybe an extra, you know, couple grand a month through the performance deal, but it looks like I'm on track to make like a 10 K commission. On top of my retainer this month, because we're crashing it. And like that's, to me is like that in that abundance mindset, that what is, what is possible, let's go for it. Let's, let's go, let's run towards it.
Angie Colee (00:53:19):
See, and that's, I think a critical part of that mindset too, that, that abundance mindset that you're talking about. But I know so many people, especially in our field in writing that they would be intimidated by a performance kind of thing.
Daniel Lamb (00:53:34):
Cause what if it doesn't work out mm-hmm
Angie Colee (00:53:35):
What if it doesn't work out or, you know, I go back to one of my biggest wins, which was when I was still in retail, I wrote a three email sequence that made $8.4 million. And it was like, how mad granted I made it on. I wrote it on salary. So it kind of doesn't count. But if I'd been a freelancer and I charged like 300 bucks for those three emails, I would be pretty fucking pissed to find out that my client made $8.4 million and they didn't value my work as more than 300 bucks.
Daniel Lamb (00:54:03):
Yeah. Three emails, a hundred bucks a piece that generate 8.4 million like, like that's, that's the kind of like, like, I guess sob story, story, horror story that, you know, people who pre preach royalties would, would talk about. Um, I had those things in the agency world when I was at my first job where we were, you know, we were doing like little SEO things for a big, um, a big clothing retailer and, um, you know, we, um, we helped them hit, we helped them go from like 16 million to 26 million in organic revenue one year.
Angie Colee (00:54:37):
Daniel Lamb (00:54:37):
And we hit all their goals and, you know, it was just like, it was a team effort. I can't claim it, but you know, and I was on salary. So I was, you know, I was making my 40 something K a year as an agency copywriter. Um, but I was like, when, when I heard that we hit our goal for that client, I was like damn, there's money on marketing. That was seven years ago. I was like, holy crap. Like there's, there's a lot of like value in what we do.
Angie Colee (00:55:05):
Creating assets that could be used over and over and over again to generate and that's, that's how I think most long term successful business owners think is in terms of creating assets versus, you know, one off repeated over and over infinity. Um, yeah, it's it, that was kind of my come to Jesus moment after that email did so well, and I went and asked for a raise and they were like, no matter what you do, you can't get more than 6%. And I was like, I just paid for the creative department salary. Like what? Yeah. And yeah, that was a team effort too, but still like the whole department's paid for man. Come on. No,
Daniel Lamb (00:55:44):
Teah, it's crazy. It's crazy. Um, like, uh, when I was, when I was getting onboarded at my day job, um, I learned that this agency charges, you know, an hourly retainer rate with a client, but like a big presentation deck, you know, could cost the client over a hundred grand, maybe over 200 grand. And I was like, wait, someone can make a PowerPoint for $200,000. What the fuck? You know what I mean? Like, like just my mind just blew into a whole another dimension at that point. I was like, wait a second. And that's my, my beliefs need changing.
Angie Colee (00:56:27):
Oh yeah. I go through that with so many of my coaching students too, and I'm like, really just pick a number and they're like, wait, but I can't charge that much. The market won't bear. I'm like, there are people out there that'll pay 500 bucks for a fucking hamburger. Cuz it's got like gold flakes and Kobe beef.
Daniel Lamb (00:56:41):
Gold flakes, and wagyu from Japan. They'll pay $500.
Angie Colee (00:56:45):
So you've just gotta decide to be the person that charges $500 for burgers and then go figure out what a $500 burger looks like.
Daniel Lamb (00:56:52):
Yeah, it's, it's so true. It, it really is about the belief that your, my own belief, that what I'm providing is of that value you and that's hard to get to, that's hard to teach. It's hard to learn. Um, but you know, if I truly believe that what I'm selling is worth a hundred dollars or a hundred thousand dollars. If I really believe it, then I feel like I can go out there and make it happen. But if I don't and if I, if I'm just like, oh, I don't know if this is really valuable, you know, I'm a creative, I it's easy for me. I'll just only charge you a 50 bucks. If I, if I, if I entertain that belief on the long term, I will stay at 50 bucks.
Angie Colee (00:57:34):
Well, and I think, you know, there's, there's an appropriate, we can, let's take this burger metaphor as far as we can. Right. So if you're getting yourself a frozen McD's Patty, you know, a cheapo, half crush bun, and you're trying to sell somebody a $500 burger that looks like something they could get off the dollar menu. Of course they're gonna resist you. The difference is they went out and got the expensive ingredients and they put it all into the, and they spent money on making that $500 burger. And then they went out and sold it for $500. And, and that kind of investment in the actual value of it, I think counts for something too.
Daniel Lamb (00:58:14):
Yeah. It, it costs, uh, you know what they say, it takes money to make money, but it does take money and investment to create an experience for people. And if you wanna be like the ultimate white glove copywriter or agency, like you need to invest in your processes and in your deliverability. And like all the things that make that white glove, you, you can't do it with, you know, a Gmail account and a Google doc and some stick figures. Like you need some, like, you know, to make that robust and to make it, to make it good.
Angie Colee (00:58:46):
There was somebody, the other, oh, I think it was that same finance course that I bought recently. But he talked about the perceived value that you have with people versus the actual value. And so like that we're, we're running a little along, so I'm gonna end it on that. But just remember when you're starting your business to the, the actual value of something, the actual dollar value is often different from the perceived value that somebody gets out of this, you know, it doesn't matter to me if it took you five minutes to come up with a solution, if you solved a 5 million problem for me in five minutes.
Daniel Lamb (00:59:21):
Angie Colee (00:59:22):
So, yeah, we're gonna leave on that. Tell me a little bit more about how to find you on the internet.
Daniel Lamb (00:59:30):
Well, Google's pretty smart. So you can Google my name but you can also go to my website. Um, it's Holland creative.io, or you can find me on ye olde Instagram or Facebook. Uh, my name is Daniel Lamb. Uh, my Insta handle is @HeyDaniel Lamb.
Angie Colee (00:59:47):
Fantastic. It has been so much fun talking to you. We're gonna have to do a part two, cuz I have a feeling we could talk about a lot.
Daniel Lamb (00:59:54):
Yep. I have the feeling that we could go on for another 90 minutes.
Daniel Lamb (00:59:58):
Angie Colee (01:00:00):
Thank you much for coming on the show. We'll have to do this again soon.
Daniel Lamb (01:00:03):
Thank you for having me.
Angie Colee (01:00:08):
So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick Ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show or if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permissiontokickass.com. That is all one word together, permissiontokickass.com. Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's Ass. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass.