Permission to Kick Ass

Keri Ohlrich: Mind Over Misunderstandings

Episode Summary

Today’s guest is Dr. Keri Ohlrich, and she’s here to shine a light on one of the biggest challenges in business - people. Specifically, how we relate to and work with people. We dive into how to thrive in the evolving world of AI, the power of self-awareness and curiosity, how to approach and navigate conflict, and most importantly how to practice empathy in the age of machine intelligence. If you’d like to join our fledgling gang of people-first leaders (we’re thinking of calling it The Recovering Jerks Club, and might even get jackets), listen now!

Episode Notes

Have you ever had an issue with a colleague or client you just could NOT let go of? Dr. Keri Ohlrich is here to help, since she’s a master in conflict resolution (literally, she has a degree in it). In this episode, Dr. Keri shares some simple tips on the best ways to avoid conflict (without feeling compelled to fire off passive-aggressive snarkisms later). If you want to learn how to get better at “peopling” without having to become a 24/7 extrovert, this one’s for you. 

Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:

This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!


Keri’s Bio:

Dr. Keri Ohlrich is on a mission to improve the environment of organizations which in turn improves the lives of employees. As the CEO and co-founder of Abbracci Group, she is a speaker, cohost of the reCHARGE® Your Life podcast, and co-author of the book, The Way of the HR Warrior. Whether it is coaching and training leaders, performing cultural/psychometric

assessments, or helping develop HR professionals into HR Warriors, she wants all to reach their potential.

Throughout her career, Dr. Ohlrich has held leadership positions at a variety of organizations ranging from start-up to Fortune 500 companies. In her previous roles, she has created and implemented HR processes, redesigned the talent function for an organization serving 25,000 global employees, led change management for a new business strategy, and overhauled the Human Resources department to one that was recognized as a trusted advisor to business leaders. Keri resides in Southern California with her husband, son, and two Dachshunds.


Resources and links mentioned:

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Episode Transcription

Angie Colee (00:03):

Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. The show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs, helming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey, and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass with me today is my new friend, Dr. Kerry Ohlrich. Say hi.

Keri Ohlrich (00:38):

Hi. How are you?

Angie Colee (00:40):

I am good. You are. So, I record these things in batches and you were the last one of the day, and I feel the energy already. I'm excited for this point. Like, what a way to cap off the day. So tell us a little bit about what you're doing.

Keri Ohlrich (00:53):

Oh my goodness. I don't even know where to start with that question. And so either I go way too short with like I give one sentence or way too long. So we're gonna try to find a happy medium. So, um, I

Angie Colee (01:04):

Don't, Hey, indulge us. It's all good,

Keri Ohlrich (01:06):

. No. You want people to listen to your podcast, don't you? It all started when I came out of my mother's womb. No. Um,

Angie Colee (01:13):

I have had one person start.

Keri Ohlrich (01:15):

Okay. That's kind of awesome.

Angie Colee (01:17):

Was my friend Pauline logged in. She was like, so one day I was born,

Keri Ohlrich (01:20):

One day I was born one day I was born. So I think it, uh, I'll skip over the, the, the born part. Um, and so I think for, for me, what need to know is I really start off in psychology. Mm-hmm. I love understanding people. It's the most complex machine. I know we're all talking about AI and machine learning and all that great stuff, but to me, the most complex and beautiful machine is the human. Mm-hmm. . We, the very most interesting one, we're very unpredictable. And so understanding how all that works and our brains work and how we react to things is fascinating to me. So it's always been fascinating how I always knew I went to study psychology. What I didn't know is I would be in business,

Keri Ohlrich (02:04):

Didn't really think that thought I'd be more on the psychology side, but with student loans that many of us know about. I thought, well, I need a job that actually pays in psychology with a bachelor's degree. Uh, does not as many, many of us may know that, or any kind of liberal arts type of degree. So I, I, uh, had g received a job at, uh, big corporate, uh, company in Chicago and in their manager development program. And this was, again, didn't think I was gonna be in there and did work in performance management and human resources going out to the factory, the plant. And all of a sudden I realized, oh my, I'm doing psychology at work and these folks don't even know I'm doing it. Like I'm doing subversive psychology. So you talk about your, your podcast permission to Kick Ass. I didn't even ask permission.

Keri Ohlrich (02:58):

We are just Kick Assing. And how much fun is that? Yeah. To do psychology with folks who don't even know that you're, that you're doing it and you're changing. And so you could make this incredible impactful change in business. You could make a change at a personal level cuz you could just talk to people and you can coach them and you can help them from an HR perspective and you can change people's lives. You can give 'em a job. Mm-hmm. . Then of course the flip side is not that HR makes the decision to fire, but we are involved in it. Right. That manager makes the decision, but HR knows about it. And, but then you can do these, you can create these programs and that will help the entire organization. So I could do programs like performance management or succession planning or engagement or a diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging and create better environments for everyone.

Keri Ohlrich (03:49):

Mm-hmm. . And when you do that, you go home in a better mood. You are nicer to your family because I don't, I mean maybe there's a few people who can com com compartmentalize and have a horrible day at work and hate everything and then walk through the door like, hello honey, I'm home. Oh it's children. You're beautiful and wonderful and like be super sweet. I don't think there's a lot of people who can do that, but I know there are some, but most of us it will kind of spill over. Yeah. And so if you're happier at work, you can be happier at home. So that, oh my goodness. I have this ability at HR to affect people's lives in this most profound way. And how cool is that?

Angie Colee (04:26):

I think that's really cool. I, first of all, I think subversive psych should be on a shirt or a mug. I

Keri Ohlrich (04:31):

Know, right? That's so You love it. I

Angie Colee (04:34):

Love it. Psych without feeling, you know, like you're in the, and there's such a loaded, I don't know, definition around psychology and psychiatry. Yes. And

Keri Ohlrich (04:42):

And therapy

Angie Colee (04:44):

Rank and therapy and yeah. I think getting to know your yourself better is always the answer. Like that we already have the answers inside us most of the time, but we're so overwhelmed by noise and options and recommendations from friends and commercials on TV that we don't have enough quiet and space and understanding of our own instincts to actually be able to listen to what we already know to be true. Yeah. Um, and and even if in the odd instance that like your brain is taking you off way out into left field, completely the wrong thing for you. But you learn by making those wrong choices. Yes. And learning what you can learn from that. So I freaking love that. And I loved one thing that you said too about AI and machine learning and the human machine brilliance. Cause I think everybody's so scared of the machines taking their jobs, but I'm like, Hey people wake up. Hello. Yeah. Uh, everybody, the people are going to be the important thing, the creative folks Right. The ones who can do something beyond just rote tasks. Yes. And that's not to say anybody that does task-based stuff is unimportant, but like strategists, creativity, communication, all of that stuff is gonna be even more important Yeah. In the coming years.

Keri Ohlrich (05:58):

But I think it too, all it shows is we just have to keep evolving. Mm-hmm. . So that's the way I look at it. So you and I, you have a podcast. I have a podcast, I'm a guest. You're a guest on podcast. And did we do this 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago? Did we even know what a podcast was? I mean mm-hmm. , like we were doing webinars. Like I did a webinar with my business partner and during the pandemic we thought, right, we should probably do a podcast. Now at first did we think, oh my goodness, I can't wait, this is amazing. Uh, no. We're like, ugh, we gotta do a podcast. Cuz that's kind of where evolution's taking us do a podcast. Mm-hmm. then do this. And so machine learning and ai, you have to figure out how to evolve with it, so mm-hmm.

Keri Ohlrich (06:39):

and if you stay stuck and you do just the same thing over and over and over again, that's not gonna do well. And and this is before, before ai, even in hr, if you did a repetitive task, let's just say like all I did was payroll every single day there are companies that are specialized in payroll mm-hmm. . And so either you go to that company or you might get replaced if you're not evolving your skills or you move to a highly specialized like payroll company. But you just, to me, as afraid as I can be sometimes and I see chat G P T and I use it and then sometimes I think, oh, how is it gonna, can it replace writers and can it do that? Yeah. But then I always push myself too of how do we evolve ourselves mm-hmm. at the same time.

Keri Ohlrich (07:28):

Yes. I know people are looking at regulations and I think the chat G P T, uh, uh, I can't think of his name right now, but he just testified in front of Congress. So again, there are things we have to look at from a structural and systemic um Yeah. Perspective. But as humans, how can we evolve and be that self-aware like you're talking about? That's the key. Mm-hmm. , that's the key, is a self-aware and evolution. And I mean, I didn't know email when I was born. Like that wasn't a part of my d n a and then we all have to evolve to it. And I will tell you my parents, um, they are, uh, oh, I'll probably get in trouble bleep this part out in their seven . But let me tell you, they are better at technology. My stepdad is better at technology than I am half the time. And so I don't wanna hear when people say, oh, I'm old and I can't, like, whenever he crushes it, he has like three laptops up. He's like, did you learn about this Carrie? In fact, they're the first ones who told me about chat G P t. Oh wow. So that's what I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. So they evolve mm-hmm. And they do it. And I don't know, it's just a great role model. So

Angie Colee (08:34):

Yeah. I mean I always love to go back to what happened to Blockbuster and what happens to the music industry Oh yeah. In the early aughts mm-hmm. , those are, those are classic examples I think of, of kind of ego in the human machine getting in the way, right? Mm-hmm. , this is the way things have always been done. Yes. This is a model that works just because people want to be able to download music and put it onto their device, or they wanna be able to download a movie and watch it on their device doesn't mean we're going to let them. Cuz we've already built this business and we like it the way it is. Right. Well, but the market has shifted and people want it the way that they want it. And if you're not going to move with it, like, here's an example of how fast things are moving.

Angie Colee (09:15):

And I still can't believe this was over 10 years ago. So I got my master's degree in entertainment industry, mass in entertainment industry management, and uh, you know, everybody's master's degree, you have to get a thesis Right. To, to pass your, your graduate work. My thesis in 2010 with my group was that the future of entertainment was digital streaming because H B O go had just entered the scene. This is wow. Less than 15 years ago. And now what are we doing? Everybody's subscribing to digital media Yep. Was like, you just gotta go with the technology because if you resist it, you're just gonna be run over by evolution.

Keri Ohlrich (09:52):

Yeah. Yeah. And I just think, you know, nature likes evolution, nature likes diversity. There's all these lessons that we see all, you know, I do biology with my, my high school son and what mm-hmm. Nature wants this nature wants you to evolve and nature wants diversity and that's why that things are more diverse and are better. So anyway, I think we were just talking Angie about my background and I'm so glad we now talked about ai, nature diversity, blockbuster. Like I love it. I love where we're going with this

Angie Colee (10:21):

, we're gonna go all over the map and back and around the world a couple of times. That's what I love about this show. That that whole conversation at the bar concept because Yeah, I mean I, I've mentioned it a couple times on the show, but I created this show because it's the thing that I wish I had mm-hmm. when I was coming up in the business world cuz I had this clear dividing line between me, the perpetual screw up over here who doesn't know anything about business. And those people up on stage shining stars, sharing their wisdom with people who clearly have all their together, never make the mistakes that I do cuz they have way more common sense than I do. And they're like, well connected and have all these advantages, like all the stories that you tell yourself about why you can't get to a certain level.

Angie Colee (11:01):

Right. But when I realized that these folks were going through the same as I was mm-hmm. , um, I was telling somebody yesterday on a, I was a guest on a different podcast, but I told her I think the shock of my life in business was when I finally had the opportunity to get in the next level room, the mastermind that people pay $40,000 a year to be a member of like those big important, the change makers, the influencers, I wanna hear what problems they're dealing with. Yeah. You wanna know what problems they're dealing with running businesses while navigating divorces and personal lives falling apart. Right. Key employees quitting and throwing their business for a loop. We're dealing with the same problems on a different scale because there's more money involved, but it's the same human problems in business all the time.

Keri Ohlrich (11:45):

It's the same. It's, it is a hundred percent the same. And when I look at technology and how it's evolved so far in, if you look at the past a hundred years, but when you look at leadership mm-hmm. and dealing with people, leadership hasn't evolved like that. We don't take leaps and bounds in leadership. We're trying, we're trying to be better leaders, we're trying to be more human. We're trying to understand people. But, but it's hard work and it's just, it's what everyone's dealing with. I mean, I I don't, to your point, it's, it's either I deal with it at a 10 billion company or 10 million, 10,000 company. Mm-hmm. , it doesn't matter. I still have someone who didn't show up to work. I have someone who uh, maybe isn't the best team member. I have someone like, uh, we just, I just had someone, um, who has a death in the family. Mm-hmm. , you gotta deal with that. So it just, yeah. There's so many things and it doesn't matter. It just matter. What is different too is maybe I'm a C E O who's on the stage and I have Wall Street breathing down my neck and now I have like i'll, it's done more pressure. It's the same problem though. Mm-hmm. The divorce is a divorce is divorce.

Angie Colee (12:48):

Right. Yeah. If your head's not in the game for a human re reason.

Keri Ohlrich (12:52):


Angie Colee (12:54):

Like that's not something technology's going to help you with.

Keri Ohlrich (12:56):

No, absolutely not. So yeah, we're humans and Yeah.

Angie Colee (13:01):

I find that really funny about the AI conversation too. Especially the fear around it's gonna take our jobs. And I do think to a certain extent it will, but not, yeah. I don't know that I agree with the reasons I, the reasons to me revolve around one repetitive tasks that that can are mm-hmm. at a lower, less, uh, trained skill level. Mm-hmm. . Right. Um, and the other one is, I mean I'm gonna call a spade a spade. The people who are willing to give up their thinking mm-hmm. and you know, kinda outsource their thinking. Okay. I don't, I don't really have to think about this cuz I can just ask chat g p t questions. Right. And I deal like with this fear a lot, particularly with writers that I coach who have been like, it's already, it's happening. Look at this article.

Angie Colee (13:45):

Yeah. I know a friend that got laid off and I was like, can I tell you what I think is about to happen? And this comes from my experience at running creative teams and dealing with clients as an agency, you know, client manager, there are about to be a whole bunch of people that fall out of love with chat G P t at least where it currently stands as we're we're recording this in May of 2023. Um, right now it functions kind of like a skilled teenage writer mm-hmm. who doesn't understand why you shouldn't make up sources and kind of keeps everything on the surface, very surface level. You have to be very explicit. Yes. Giving this thing directions, asking it questions, you have to know exactly what you want this outcome to be. Because otherwise if you ask a vague unspecific question, you're going to get a very frustrating results.

Angie Colee (14:28):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and you're gonna be clicking regenerate 20 times and wasting a whole bunch of time not wondering why or not understanding why this machine isn't working. Mm-hmm. , it's because it's matching the quality of the output with the quality of the input that it got. So I say all of that's kinda rambly, but to the writers, I told them, your client's already stuck at strategy and giving feedback right now. They don't know what's wrong with the draft. They don't know what's right until they see it. Like they're already not thinking through these things. So back to the point about being a strategist and being a creative, do you think they're gonna know how to tell the machine how to fix this draft? Right. If they can't tell a human how to fix this draft, right.

Keri Ohlrich (15:04):

Like Right.

Angie Colee (15:05):

We've got to learn how to communicate better even with the machines Yeah. In order to get what we need. Yeah.

Keri Ohlrich (15:11):

And it's super helpful. Like I'll tell you it, there's a helpful part of it where it can take down maybe an hour of a little bit of research, right? Mm-hmm. and that's good. But then to your point, that creative type understands the culture of the company, understands the leader's voice, understands what the employees are feeling so they tailor the message to that. So yes, you are so needed just in a different way. Mm-hmm. So you don't have to write copy for eight hours, but you do need to now really understand what employees want and what the leaders want. So then you can tailor that and go, oh you know what, this isn't gonna fly. Or they need this type of message or not this type of message. And so it, that problem solving and creativity to me is so incredibly important for people Yes.

Keri Ohlrich (15:58):

To. And how do you collaborate and pull all these people together and what's that empathy? So for example, I was just in a meeting and um, someone was surprised in the meeting and I felt horrible. That wasn't my intent. And so I wrote to him right after, cause I was still in another meeting and I said, Hey, I, that's not my style. I'm so sorry you got surprised. Mm-hmm. , I just don't, I don't like that and I'm sorry about that, but a machine can't do that. Yeah. That, that's this empathy part that that's what people need to to work on is how do I work with people? Cuz we could have had a most beautiful presentation brought to you by chade, G P T, let's just pretend . Right. But because it went a bit sideways in the meeting, he might've baby left. If I didn't say anything, maybe he would've left and said, boy, that Carrie man whoof, I don't wanna work with her again.

Keri Ohlrich (16:49):

Mm-hmm. instead using empathy. Hopefully he still appreciates me, but you know, apologize. Oh, I'm so sorry I didn't, I didn't need you. I didn't want you to be surprised like that. I'm so sorry. And he was like, no, we're good. I said, are we still good? Yeah, yeah. No, we're good. And so now we continue to be good. There's nothing in chat G P T AI that would've come up with Dear Carrie, you might wanna talk to him and make sure he's okay. Like mm-hmm. so that empathy and problem solving creativity are so incredibly important for people. And those are the skills that we should be working on. Anything that, if the internet should have taught us something of, if your knowledge base is because you know what? 1 million plus 26 million plus, you know what I mean? Okay. I'm too really simple math. I'm sorry . But if, if you're just, if you, but if you're, if your worth is around, I know obscure facts or something, uh, the internet already placed you with that mm-hmm. . And so AI is gonna replace some of that. So how do you evolve and become this creative feeling collaborative person?

Angie Colee (17:49):

Yeah. I love that. Like the empathy and awareness is so key. Unless you hear this and go, well I'm just, I I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not really an empathetic person. I would argue that I was also not an empathetic person. In fact, I give a presentation to a group recently about this kind of like leadership and learning how to communicate better. And when I introduced myself, I think the thing that people got the most laughs out of was I gave my credentials, I gave why I thought this was important. And at the end I had a bullet point that said, recovering jerk, like, love that that is the truth. And I'm still working on that every day. The way that I grew up and the way that I processed, I mean, I was a very judgy person and I thought that there was one way to do things the right way mm-hmm.

Angie Colee (18:35):

and the wrong way. Yeah. And like, of course I've got the right way. You should just do things my way. And I thought I could fix everybody else's problems. Mm-hmm. , I thought that, uh, bringing up problems and not bringing up solutions , uh, was the way to get everybody to act uhhuh. Hence that's, that's actually complaining guys, in case you need somebody to define that for you. Like, I needed it defined for me . Um, but like, it was just practice. I started asking myself, I don't know if you have any questions or prompts that you wanna share, but like I I learned to start asking myself, is there a reason behind this question? Like what makes this make sense to this other person? What are circumstances that could be happening that I'm not aware of mm-hmm. where this is a totally logical conclusion. That makes sense. Yeah. And I don't mean that in a, like a sarcastic or a judgey way. No, I mean that in a a genuinely what Yes. Curious way. Like what other perspective could somebody be coming from where this is actually like, wow, okay. Mm-hmm. , I see your points here and just curiosity solve so many problems I think.

Keri Ohlrich (19:40):

I think But you said it so well, Angie, because it's, first of all, this is self-awareness that mm-hmm. that, and I, and I might, because I might be with you in that boat of kind of a recovering jerk, a bit because the reason I did it, because we all have reasons to your point. Yeah. Why are you doing it? So I, I like to get work done and be really efficient. Same. That is more important to me than probably chit-chatting about stuff.

Angie Colee (20:04):

Oh, same

Keri Ohlrich (20:06):

, right? So you ha so then once you actually are self-aware and realize, oh man, okay. That's, that's what's important. And I'm also very urgent. Mm-hmm. . So that urgency, my business partner and I are pretty urgent people and we will forget to say good morning. Mm-hmm. , like, she'll text me right away and be like, Hey, this da da da da da da da da. You gotta do this. And then all of a sudden she'll go, oh yeah, good morning . And we laugh cuz I'll do the same thing too. I just did it this morning to, to someone who helps us as a virtual assistant. And um, and I, and I wrote, but here's some photos. And I said, oh yeah and hope you're having a good day and good morning. Cause this is not how I start. It's not how I start.

Keri Ohlrich (20:44):

And so I think knowing yourself, you ask for like some tips or questions. Yeah. Knowing yourself. Knowing yourself and knowing what you're like. I know that the time is important to me and being efficient and I don't wanna waste people's time. That's incredibly important to me. And so sometimes that works for me and sometimes it's not going to. Yeah. And, and a lot of times I asking the question of like, what, how do you want this person to feel after this meeting? Mm-hmm. . And that's a hard question for people who are very much all thinking all the time. And so how do you want this person to feel when they leave this meeting with you? Do you want them to be happy? Do you want them to be scared? Do you want them to just not even care and go, I really don't work with Angie again.

Keri Ohlrich (21:28):

Yeah. I, I would like people to say, I I wanna work with Carrie again. Same. Uh, so so how can you bond with them? How can you ask questions? And you said that curiosity mm-hmm. . And so it's, you do have to step, take a step back cuz I can be very judgy of like, well of course you do it this way, duh. Mm-hmm , I mean just duh. And how do you step back and say, okay then everyone thinks that and you just pause yourself. And I think there's so much if, if anyone wants to practice empathy, like don't say anything. Just wait. Give yourself 10 seconds. Yes. Give yourself 24 hours before you send an angry email. Just pause for honest that time there are a couple emails I wish I could take back and gave myself 24 hours. Like I really wish I could have and I would've been a much nicer person.

Keri Ohlrich (22:17):

But even that, just a breath before. You don't have to ask the question right now, just go, wait, did I hear it the right way? Or Hey, I'm confused. Can you help me out? I'm, I don't think I heard that the right way. What'd you say? Mm-hmm. . Oh, okay. And let me see if I can reflect back what I'm hearing. You wanna practice empathy? Yes. Reflect back what someone says to you. So this is what I heard and not in a weird robotic way. It might be weird and robotic at first, but could be like Angie, it sounds like you're pretty off about that. Sure. Mm-hmm. .

Angie Colee (22:45):

Yeah. Okay.

Keri Ohlrich (22:47):

Like yeah so there's some, you can practice empathy and you can get better at it, that's for sure. Mm-hmm.

Angie Colee (22:52):

for sure there, there's a lot of power in just naming the emotion. Oh yeah. And this was something that I learned from a mentor of mine where uh, starting that conversation, especially if it's, if you suspect it's going to be an uncomfortable conversation mm-hmm like Angie, I imagine you're pretty off. Uh, she used to say it, either it sounds or I'm thinking you must be a little bit off mm-hmm. after that last meeting. Yeah. And you know, if I had to guess why it would be X, y, Z. Mm-hmm. , is that accurate? Do you is talk to me, I'm here. Yeah. And that starts a conversation cuz first of all I feel very validated. I feel like you've paid attention. Exactly. And you saw the cues that I'm said and now that allows me to like drop my shoulders and drop my guard a little bit and go Yeah, okay. They're genuinely interested in what I think I can share why I'm upset with them. Right. And that also takes the sting off it because I don't feel compelled to like out shout them to get them to hear me. They've already told me they're going to hear me. Yes. I love that

Keri Ohlrich (23:56):

That validation. You said the V word, which is validation, which is what we, what we try to train people. Yeah. Like validate their feelings. And then I was thinking when you work the next time with that person, you have so much in the bank already with them. Mm-hmm. , you're like boy this person really understands me and you'll give more things relationship grace now. Right. And you'll give more grace now. So say this person's in a sassy mood or says something that you have thought, wow that's kind of weird. They said it, it won't matter as much because you already have this good relationship. You built up this trust, you have it in the bank and how beautiful then your relationship mm-hmm. and then Yeah. Sorry. But I got so excited about your validation. Angie, I interrupted you.

Angie Colee (24:33):

I interrupt all the time. This is why I'm constantly taking notes so that I don't lose my train of thought but like I wanna keep you talking cuz this is gold . Um, I was just gonna say, I thought it was funny that you talk about like efficiency in producing and like pedal to the metal is the way that I like to describe it. Yes. Cause I'm very much producer like that too. Yeah. In fact, you might find it funny when I was still in my corporate job, I actually approached my boss at one point and said I cannot handle people dropping by my cube and asking questions constantly. How upset would you be if I got a wooden trifold screen off like Amazon and put that up at the door of my cube with a note that says, please email me your question and promise I'm here. Like I'm here to help and I want to, but I can't because I, I really just

Keri Ohlrich (25:23):

Oh bless you.

Angie Colee (25:24):

People that are not creative don't understand how I know disruptive and destructive it is Yes. If you've come up Yes. And caught me in the middle Yeah. Of a train of thought that I just needed to capture before it went away and now it's gone and there is no getting it back. Yeah. And that's so frustrating as a creative person. So it's like, no it's not that I don't wanna go to the break room with you and it's not that I don't wanna hear your struggles or or your bad day. I want to be here for you. And also I really need to finish this thought before it goes away forever and I lose it.

Keri Ohlrich (25:56):

I love, well what? But what, first of all, I would've been like, oh that darn cube life, I'm kind of glad a lot of us are away from cube life cuz that was super freaking painful for you from a creative, for me, from hr, the, there's no privacy. So therefore how could I ever have any private conversation with anyone? Mm-hmm. or I couldn't even look at my computer screen cause they had these giant screens and I thought, well what am I supposed put the succession plan up there. Oh hey everyone, as you walk by, look at who the new c e o is. No worries. Please. It's confidential. Keep it con but potential, but keep it confide. But I think again, what you model is, if you could te if you could tell everyone that, uh, but like, Hey, I'm a creative, here's what's happening. I really wanna see you, but I can only do, if you could put all that on the screen, people would read and go, oh, okay. Yeah. But if just the screen was up and said email me mm-hmm. , they would walk away going, whatever Angie, I don't wanna work with you either.

Angie Colee (26:53):

She's apparently feeling today. I know.

Keri Ohlrich (26:55):

Exactly. Oh my god. Don't even ask her. She doesn't wanna work with you. But, but if you could explain that and that's this power of being self-aware and explaining to people how you're feeling, that boosts the empathy right away. Mm-hmm. . And it's a vulnerable position. A lot of people don't wanna do that, but you kind of have to if you wanna bond with people. Oh sorry. Gotta do it.

Angie Colee (27:18):

I think like one of your most important self-awareness tools is being able to recognize and acknowledge the fact that not everybody thinks the way that you do has the same experience or perspective as you do. Yes. It was an eyeopener to me that same cube one time a a guy came over from the signage department and they, you know, they would request sign packages from us. Yeah. And we'd, we'd go create them and he walked over and I'm standing at my, my standing desk and I'm staring at a blank page. Every creative knows exactly what I'm doing. Yeah. I'm ruminating, I'm trying to find those first few words to put down. Uh, and he walks up and he just kinda leans against the cube and has this look on his face of like, what on earth is happening? And he goes, so what are you doing? And I was like, writing your signs. And he goes, you start from a blank word document. And I was like, yeah. Do you think that they just like come from my head and are magically printed? Yeah. You have to write it. The designer has to design it. We have to print up copies for you. Like this comes outta my head brother.

Keri Ohlrich (28:18):


Angie Colee (28:19):

And it didn't occur to me before that point that like somebody that doesn't operate as a creative, doesn't operate in the same industry as me, has no concept of creating something out of thin air. Oh.

Keri Ohlrich (28:30):

And that's your curiosity and you can take that curiosity everywhere cuz you can say, how do you, I always love to know how, how do you work? How does that work? Yeah. Oh that's interesting. How does that work? And one of the reasons I always love to travel, especially to places that I haven't been to is because you get to see different culture. Yes. Different, um, language, different, different ways to shake hands, different time the way they look at time. And one of my favorite books is by, uh, it's called Riding the Waves of Culture. It's been around, he has mm-hmm. Many additions. The name Fons is the first name f o n s. And then it's like Trump and Ra. So I don't even ask me to spell it , but if Right. Riding the waves of culture first name f o n s It is my favorite because what he does, because I love science, he pulls all like real scientific data.

Keri Ohlrich (29:21):

They aren't stories like, oh my god, I was in Italy and they seem to not run on time. But then I was in Germany and they seem to run on time. Mm-hmm. , this is like full research data on Germans are on the time continuum. Here's where they sit, here's how Italians sit and just country after country of how many close friends do they have, how do they look at community and individualism and it's so fascinating. Mm-hmm. Cause if you wanna think like, do I think the same Nope. Read that book and realize that holy smoke, there's a million ways to think about something.

Angie Colee (29:54):

Oh yeah. And I love that you brought up the cultural aspect of it too, cuz I remember Okay. So, uh, I I think this will surprise no one that knows me or has heard me rant about it before, but maybe it's surprising to you considering how many people think I'm, I'm laid back little bit type a little bit. Uh, I am the one that if you are not in the car on time, you will find your own. Right. I will be gone. We are not waiting.

Keri Ohlrich (30:18):

Oh sweet.

Angie Colee (30:19):

There you go. I'm not gonna be late, late stresses me out. Okay. Um, and so it was like if we can come to that small little understanding that being late stresses, it turns me into a not nice person. I don't want you to meet the not nice version of me. So I'm not going to be late. You are fine to be late if that's how you need to be. I don't expect you to change. But like I got challenged by that hardcore several years ago, pre pandemic when I decided on a whim I am going to Fiji because I just

Keri Ohlrich (30:49):

Had hard,

Angie Colee (30:50):

I had a hard breakup.

Keri Ohlrich (30:52):


Angie Colee (30:52):

I need to go somewhere exotic. I met up with some New Zealand friends in Fiji. So the reason that, uh, Dr. Kerry is going Oh sweetie, is because sweetie, uh, Fiji abides by something called island time. Mm-hmm. Which means it'll happen when it happens.

Keri Ohlrich (31:07):

Happens when it happens. Yeah. That was

Angie Colee (31:10):

Very, very challenging for me. But it also super duper helped in just kind of decompressing uhhuh and disconnecting because there was no need to look at the wash. Like woo. Yep. Sun is kind of roughly up there. That's probably time to head out to the boat and if the boat's there we can get on it and if it's not there, we'll wait for the next one. Like

Keri Ohlrich (31:29):

That would be another one.

Angie Colee (31:30):

Yeah. It was such a wonderful experience.

Keri Ohlrich (31:34):

That time issue of being on time and five minutes early is on time and on time's late and late. Yeah. All this kinda the amount of conflict mm-hmm. across countries, across states. I mean, I'm like, I live in California now, but I'm from Chicago so there's still even a time difference between California and Chicago And I don't mean the two hour time difference. I mean how we view time and the amount of conflict that happens on that holy smoke. So just even knowing how you view time and not everyone views it that way. Mm-hmm. . And how do you calm yourself down? Because really other people, they're not taking it as rude in, I remember this one example and I thought it was so great and it was, it was, they were talking about German and French looking at time and they said, so when you're in a, when you're standing in Germany and you're like, uh, uh, it's one o'clock, we got the meet at one o'clock, I gotta go and you'll cut off the conversation that you and I are having mid-sentence and both of us will be okay with it mm-hmm.

Keri Ohlrich (32:33):

because we're like, oh my God, you have to be on time.

Angie Colee (32:35):


Keri Ohlrich (32:35):

However, you have the same conversation in France. And if I cut off that conversation, that would be so rude. Relational, like, uh, the relationship. And by the way, the person who's waiting for me will say, you know what, I betcha Carrie and Angie are talking Yeah. And they don't wanna ruin that relationship. So I'm okay that you're gonna be five minutes late mm-hmm. . And then you can see the cross-cultural issues ensue. Right. So now you the the German cuts 'em off or the French, I mean. Yeah. So, and it's just, and that's relatively simple mm-hmm and look at how much, um, uh, consternation it causes and angst it causes in accompany. So it is rough.

Angie Colee (33:15):

Mm-hmm. , I was actually glad that you brought up the C word. The C word that we all avoid and no, it's not dirty if that's what you're thinking, but you're in the right place if you thought dirty cuz that's

Keri Ohlrich (33:25):

Good too. ,

Angie Colee (33:26):

Um, non sequitur, uh, conflict. That's the dirty word. I think especially in business where we're supposed to be professional, we're logic and we do things, numbers and and procedures and things like that. Yes. There's this concept in freelancing at least that like, I'm a creative person, I'm working with this business person and they're making all of their decisions logically and they are well thought out. There's nothing impulsive or human or what my gut says do this. So we're do going in this direction today. Yeah. Now, uh, you're gonna be working with humans. Humans do irrational feeling based things on a whim. Yeah. Uh, cuz mercury's in retrograde because

Keri Ohlrich (34:04):

Whatever, first of all, I swear that's a thing though. I just have to say, and it's not cause I live in southern California, but I'm like that I didn't really realize about it. I didn't know about it until I moved out here. And then I see it and I, I said, wow, everyone's acting crazy. And someone's like, it's mercury retrograde. I'm like, oh my god. It is. So there is something weird about the universe, but that's a whole different topic, Angie. But I just had to say it. Oh

Angie Colee (34:24):


Keri Ohlrich (34:25):

Some weird stuff. And ask HR when full moons happen, I will tell you most of the HR people will say, oh yeah. Know's some crazy that happened and it was a full moon. Oh, I tell I emergency rooms are the same way. Ask doctors, they'll tell

Angie Colee (34:38):

You. That's what I was gonna say. Can we cross reference that against emergency room tricks?

Keri Ohlrich (34:41):

Yes, you can. Because, because I've heard emergency doctors say the same thing as HR with, it's a full moon, so something weird. So I'm not weird, but just something's going on or mm-hmm. anyway. Mm-hmm. Another podcast. Sorry Angie, go go back

Angie Colee (34:55):

To your original Oh no, that's fine. I laugh about that because I consider myself to be kind of a, my friend Laura Belgrade says Woo adjacent. So I'm like, oh, I like

Keri Ohlrich (35:04):

Thatm Woo adjacent. I like that. Yeah.

Angie Colee (35:06):

I'm open to it with a healthy dose of skepticism. Yeah. And when she described it that way, I was like Exactly. Exactly.

Keri Ohlrich (35:12):

Yes. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna totally steal that cuz I feel I I would be like that. I'm not all in all the time. Like I don't have any crystals or anything like that, but mm-hmm. . But I do appreciate, uh, an astrological sign. I do appreciate the moons. I do like Yeah, I know all that nature affects you and all. And especially, like I said, moving from a state that was rainy and snowy. Let me tell you how much better my personality is in the sunshine mm-hmm. and uh, not shoveling like it. I know that sounds silly, but I am a happier, don't think

Angie Colee (35:42):

It sounds silly

Keri Ohlrich (35:42):

At all. Nicer person. I'm like a happier, nicer person. And that's why half the people at the grocery store, like, Hey, what's going on? And they're so like, nice and the checkout line, because they're not all cranky fuss fuss because they just had snow all over their shoes. It's mm-hmm. , it's cold and gross out your snots hanging out your nose. Like Right. Instead you just walk into the grocery store like, hey, and it's mm-hmm. . I'm a much nicer person in the sunshine, I'll tell you.

Angie Colee (36:10):

Oh, I totally agree with that. I, I feel, yeah. Cause I lived in southern California for a while and, and I lived in northern California too after a while I did miss cuz I grew up in south Texas. Big missed Midwestern thunderstorms. Yeah. There's nothing quite like experiencing one of those, especially if you can sit under a covered porch and just like watch nature rage around you. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, don't film tornadoes. Random non-sequitur again, , they are actually dangerous. .

Angie Colee (36:40):

Speaking of tornadoes and destruction, I'm gonna try and flip that into an awkward segue back to conflicts. Do it. Um, there is so much, I think destruction and hurt feelings that are caused when we try to avoid conflict because we think of conflict as such a bad thing. Mm-hmm. , if we're getting along, if we're friends, we're colleagues and we respect each other, we shouldn't be disagreeing, we shouldn't be having our arguments. Yeah. And the fact is that you're two different people with two different backgrounds and perspectives and all kind millions of different things that have happened in your life along the way. And you're not going to see everything eye to eye. So the reality is not, uh, how do we avoid conflict forever, because that's actually gonna lead to more hurt feelings. Right. It's how are we going to tackle this conflict together? And I can't even remember where I heard it, but somebody told me something that made it click for me. It's you and me versus the problem. Mm. And that was when I was like, I

Keri Ohlrich (37:35):

Like that. Oh,

Angie Colee (37:37):

Okay. That takes the pressure off it for me to try and convince them my way is right. While also resisting them convincing me their way is right. Yeah.

Keri Ohlrich (37:45):

Yeah. And I think too, you know, and you know it from being a creative and my husband's a painter mm-hmm. , so oil painter and it's, I I almost don't wanna use the word conflict. Mm-hmm. And my degree is conflict resolution. So I have a degree in international conflict resolution and yeah, there's some big conflicts. It's called a war. Like I'm not trying to negate mm-hmm. That word cuz it's a conflict. But at work, if a disagreement is labeled a conflict, it's not though. Mm-hmm. , it's you and I like, like, like your your, your buddy said it's just solving the problem. It's trying to get to how do we wrestle this to the ground? Yes. Like, what's your viewpoint, Angie? What's yours, Carrie? And I'll say like, oh, I don't agree with that. Let's debate it. And you gotta look at it like different.

Keri Ohlrich (38:30):

And I'm not a big, I don't, like, I felt bad having to write to this person going, I'm sorry if I surprised you. You know, I didn't mean to. And I was like, oh God, I I wanna avoid that. Mm-hmm. , but I wanted to repair the relationship. But if people could view it as not a conflict is you're just brainstorming and hashing out and this is what creatives do. And if you're in a writer's room, you say, how about this joke? That joke kind of sucks. Okay, let's go to the next joke. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, and it's not personal and it's like we're just trying to either make the best product for the company. We're trying to create the best experience for employees and it may, we're gonna disagree on it and then we'll just eventually settle on something. But I almost feel like calling it conflict. Mm-hmm. then p people go, oh God, it's a conflict between Carrie and Angie. They're fighting. And I'm like, no, we're not fighting. Mm-hmm. We're totally debating ideas. It's not a fight. And I actually appreciate going, I tell, I don't get that Angie to explain it. Oh, mm-hmm. . Yeah. I still don't like it. Okay.

Angie Colee (39:33):

Yeah. Actually I love that clarification of of of taking the stigma and the weight and the gravitas off. Yeah. Conflict and being like, we're gonna disagree. So how do we resolve the disagreement? How do we get back on the same page versus Right. Fighting

Keri Ohlrich (39:50):

And, and usually the disagreement to your point, quite often at work, it's just about getting to an end point. It's not that I disagree with your way of life and you disagree with my way of, you know what I mean? Like these big, that is a big conflict, but usually it's just, I think the due date should be November 2nd. Well I think it should be November 10th. And like, and we're going, Ooh, they're in conflict. I'm like that mm-hmm. , that's not a conflict. That's, we're trying to figure this out. Like, come on now. Oh yeah. Like, so I, I think people get a little weird and then we all have these, these fragile egos and they're like, well Angie didn't agree with me and she didn't agree with me in front of my boss and now that's gonna make me look bad. And to the storm that starts in our own head and it just, it's not worth it. So.

Angie Colee (40:34):

Oh yeah, that's it.

Keri Ohlrich (40:35):

Tone it all the way down to just brainstorming. We're just brainstorming. Yeah.

Angie Colee (40:39):

That's it. Yeah. We're, we're trying to find the best possible solution or at least the best solution that we can come up with that's given the time we've got. Right. That's it. I've, it, I've seen so many people, I'm sorry to you, if you're a member of the Pitchfork mob and you love hanging out in freelancer or entrepreneur groups? Not, not you. Oh, I

Keri Ohlrich (40:57):


Angie Colee (40:57):

This listeners

Keri Ohlrich (40:58):

We're Pitchfork, oh sorry. I call it

Angie Colee (41:00):

Okay. Pitchfork. Mob. Cause I think that there are these online groups of freelancers and entrepreneurs that love to get all riled up over you been done wrong and I've been done wrong and let's just rage. Oh yeah. About all the things that have been done to us. We are victims.

Keri Ohlrich (41:13):


Angie Colee (41:13):

And that's not to say that bad hasn't happened to you, cuz it probably has, does that mean that every client interaction is a red flag and everybody should be fired and no. Right. It doesn't, it just means that there's probably a misunderstanding somewhere, a disagreement somewhere. Right. That we're avoiding. And it drives me nuts when I see people going to the pitchfork mob and going, so this is what's happening with my client. I'm trying to convince them to use an Oxford comma cuz it's gra grammatically correct. And they disagree with me and I just want them to know how right I am. And I'm just over here going, doesn't Oxford comma matter? Doesn't

Keri Ohlrich (41:46):

Matter. It doesn't matter. Here's the thing. And I think that's like the bit of advice from me having a degree in it and being old . So like older, like I have more years behind me now than I do have in front. And so like, who gives a? You know what I mean? Like honest to God. Like I, I mean I gave a when I was in my thirties I'm sure. Yeah. Where I was like, oh my God. Like that the Oxford comma is super important. Mm-hmm. , it's not though. It really isn't. And once in a while it is. Once in a while if you're publishing a book, you got like, you have to agree on something. Yeah. You can't just have it like Oxford comma here, not here, whatever mm-hmm. . And you could like sas with your friends about how important it is, but like with a client and to have like a fight about it.

Keri Ohlrich (42:31):

And I've seen arguments like argue, argue like settle down and who cares and also mm-hmm. Just like walk away from it. It doesn't, you don't have to be right. And you, is it worth it? And I think for a lot of conflict is, is it even worth it to say it? It doesn't. Mm-hmm. , it doesn't matter. Let it go. I let so many things go. And so it's interesting when you say conflict avoidant, I'll tell people it's a great strategy quite often. Yeah. Is avoiding the conflict if you can truly avoid it. Mm-hmm. Yes. I'm not talking about fester. There's a difference between avoid and I go, I let it go. Like I don't give a about it. Yeah. I'm letting it go versus, oh no, I won't talk about it with Angie, but I'm gonna hold it against her. Mm-hmm. so I can be passive aggressive about it later. That's not letting go of a conflict.

Angie Colee (43:18):

Mm-hmm. , that's a, there's a big difference there. And like, I, I don't can't even remember when it happened, but I just started asking myself a couple of questions. Like one is this the hill I'm willing to die on like

Keri Ohlrich (43:29):

A hundred percent how

Angie Colee (43:30):

Hard am I willing to fight? Yeah. And then the, the second one, and this like helps with my anger again, recovering jerk, my anger overall resets when I go this, is this going to matter to me in five years? Am I even going to remember what's happening in five years? Cool. If the answer to those two questions is no, then I'm going to let it go because this is not worth me not worth getting stressed and aggravated over.

Keri Ohlrich (43:51):

And by the way, Angie, I would say not even five years, ask yourself in 24 hours are you even gonna give a about it? Seriously. Mm-hmm. , I mean quite, I bet you at like, if I think about the stuff that I get super at and then 24 hours later I'm so busy with other stuff that I'm like mm-hmm. . Oh yeah, I even forgot about that. Like, I was ticked off about that one. Oh yeah. I don't even remember that one anymore.

Angie Colee (44:12):

Well, it was like, I find it funny cuz like so many people, I, I mean I get frustrated on the road like a lot of folks, but most of the time stuff that would other people off behind the wheel, I'm just like, Hmm, I saw that coming, let it go. I knew they were gonna cut me off. It's doesn't bother me. I'm leaving space. I know it's going to happen. I'm not going to fight it. I'm not gonna presume I can teach them a lesson by Right.

Keri Ohlrich (44:33):

Like a hundred percent. Yeah. It's

Angie Colee (44:34):

Going to happen. There's no point in me fighting this and I'm just hurting myself and raising my own blood pressure by getting off at them. So I'm not going to do this

Keri Ohlrich (44:41):

Like a hundred percent because the only person you can control is yourself. So Yes. And your reaction. And your reaction. So because they don't give a. Oh my gosh. That they cut you off. Mm-hmm. , I mean, and by the way, we we're assuming that they knew they cut us off. Yeah. Uh, I'm sure I cut off people and I didn't know it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I, I'm sure that I did. And so I went merely along my way of like, da da da da da, you know? And I didn't even realize maybe I did it because I live in LA where there's like 12 lanes of traffic. Yeah. And you try really hard to know what's going on . But it's guarantee sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm sorry about that Uhhuh. Um, but, but like, I mean I, I went along my life and there were super angry and you just mm-hmm. , I didn't even know. So I

Angie Colee (45:28):

Heard this great thing, it's, it was probably some stupid internet video that someone sent me, but that has also helped me just kind of laugh it off when people are cutting me off or they're being rude or, or something like that. Like, just assume that the person that cut you off in traffic or they're tailgating you or you know, they didn't hold the door open for you, has to poop really bad. It's an emergency. I love that they're trying to get to the toilet so that they don't, you know, really embarrass themselves. Uh, and that just makes me like, yes, please, by all means, pass me on the shoulder. That's what you need to, to do. Gotta

Keri Ohlrich (46:02):

You gotta go, you gotta go. I kind of, I love that because I think I said something similar to, to my husband one time where, um, person was all like, persnickety about something and I'm like, I don't know, maybe they had massive diarrhea. I don't know. Yep. But like, you don't know. You have no idea. Mm-hmm. You really don't. Mm-hmm. And there are, and you and I can probably think of times where we were kind of maybe riding someone's in the car mm-hmm. and you know why mm-hmm. Because we were late for a meeting. We had to go to the potty. We were hungry, we had to pick someone up. Mm-hmm. , I mean, there are times where you're stuck in traffic forever and uh, you, you get a little antsy. Mm-hmm. . So you just going all the way back, Angie, to what you said, that being curious and try not to assume. Yes. It's a very hard, I know it's hard for me to do and I constantly like tell myself and remind myself, but that's how I work at empathy and that's why I have, I'm way better at it than I was before. And you can get better and be recovered jerk. Yeah. Although I would just say you were being quite efficient and, uh, try to be your creative process. Look at, I'm already making excuses for you. You weren't a jerk. You were okay. It

Angie Colee (47:05):

Was Oh no, I was, people didn't

Keri Ohlrich (47:06):

Understand it

Angie Colee (47:07):

Quite, I was quite demanding and I am so grateful and this is why I, I kind of, I mean I do get a little bit preachy about being understanding and trying to go out of your way to understand perspective somebody else might be coming from and, and seeing if it makes sense. Like there's another angle that this comes from, I was very, very fortunate that I had a manager when I was still in corporate who got me. Mm. She understood the heart and the intent and the talent that I brought to the table, and the value that I provided to the team so much that when I had an impassioned outburst at a meeting or I stepped on someone's toes, or my favorite, when I was training a new writer for the first time, I got, I got promoted to senior, I'm in charge. Let me pour my wisdom into this willing vessel who wants to learn everything I know and do things my way, subtext. Mm-hmm. , um, that he would do things like pull me aside and go, you know, there's many different ways to solve this particular problem and we will never know if their way works as well as yours. Nice. Even better than yours doesn't work as well as yours if you never even give them a chance to take their idea from idea to execution. I love that. Like, I, Angie's Way is not the only way. And I was like, yeah, why not? Because there's 8 billion people on the planet. No.

Keri Ohlrich (48:29):

Yeah. That's such good. And I think too, the, the, the extra lesson there too is the importance of one person in your life, either mentoring mm-hmm. You coaching, you being there for you. Yeah. That one person can change your life. Yes. And to find that person that can give you feedback and whoever that is, sister, brother, cousin, boss, peer, whatever. But find someone to Yes. Give you feedback. And it's just good for mental health too. But yes. Find your person. Yeah.

Angie Colee (49:01):

P and i like, I gather people for different aspects of things too. Yes. Just that I can, and I also have a file of I, here's a random segue again, uh, of screenshots that I like to grab whenever I get unsolicited compliments or I win mm-hmm. or something like that, I will screenshot that and file it away for later so that when I can't reach any of my people, got a little feel good folder. That idea that can go dive into for a while.

Keri Ohlrich (49:24):

Idea. That's a great idea.

Angie Colee (49:25):

Um, but you know, these, these people, they see the humanity in me and they still see something worthwhile and that, that's important to me. I called it, I, I recently joined a course from a friend of mine and she teaches something called pre-launching, which, uh, I don't know how deep in the marketing world you go, but I literally used to run the marketing team for a man that teaches launches. I am a veritable launch expert, and I joined this pre-launch program and one of my friends asked me, why did you join a lo a pre-launch program? You know what there is to know? Right. And I said, I'm not looking for skills, I'm not looking for extra strategies. I am looking for accountability in an undistorted mirror. Mm-hmm. , it said undistorted mirror. What do you mean? I said, when I look in the mirror, all I see is warped facts.

Angie Colee (50:11):

I see something that can't possibly be valuable enough for people to pay for. I see all the reasons I shouldn't put this thing out there. I see all of my competitors and why. Yeah. You know, it doesn't make sense for me to enter the marketplace. I need an undistorted mirror to reflect the truth and the potential back at me so that I feel inspired to go. And she was like, oh, that's interesting. I'm like, I think that's all I look for in a course or a mastermind or a discussion like this too. Yeah. Can we reflect the truth back at each other in a way that inspires people? Can we still be humans and things up and still go out into the world and have a great time? Yeah. And do incredible things like Yes. Yes. Oh,

Keri Ohlrich (50:50):

I love it.

Angie Colee (50:50):

I just wanna, I wanna keep ranting for like two more hours because

Keri Ohlrich (50:54):

, its a great

Angie Colee (50:55):

Conversation. , I just glanced at the clock.

Keri Ohlrich (50:57):

I was like, oh, I so much, I know. It went by in about five minutes.

Angie Colee (51:02):

Oh, okay. I think this solution is a part two. We're gonna do a part two or maybe a recurring segment or I'll come on one of these things we're keeping in touch, but for now, tell us where we can learn about you and your amazingness.

Keri Ohlrich (51:16):

Uh, well, uh, you can find me on LinkedIn. There aren't many Keri Ohlrich's so it's a pretty easy search. I'm not like Mary Smith, where I find, you know, a thousand people. So you can find me. You can go to our website, ACE group and find us there and just yeah, LinkedIn. And then send me an email at Ker.ohlrich@acegroup as well. So it's all Yes. Great.

Angie Colee (51:38):

Awesome. I'm gonna make sure that they have clickable links in the show notes and

Keri Ohlrich (51:41):

Thank you.

Angie Colee (51:42):

Thank you Again. This was ranty and wonderful and inspiring and I'm so happy right now.

Keri Ohlrich (51:47):

Thank you for having this space for it too. I feel I was just reflecting back and I thought, I don't think I ever really quite finished, um, my, uh, uh, career trajectory and mm-hmm. . I'm so happy I didn't because it was way more fun than the boring, like what I do. So I love it. So I love that you have this kind of free flowing Bar Talk podcast. I think that's amazing. Good for you. I love it.

Angie Colee (52:13):

That's all for now. If you wanna keep that Kick Ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dose of you can do it. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Permission to Kick Ass podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you stream your podcast. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go Kick Ass some.